Argentine Air Force - FAA

[Globetrotter]

Are there any Argentines here to talk about the FAA.?? If not, do you know something about it?? What airplane do you think it should buy to replace old Mirages 3???

Hope to hear from you,
Cheers,
Thomas

[Webmaster]

I'd say select the Mirage III/V and Israeli variants that still have some life left, upgrade them in similar fashion as the Kfir C.10. Then buy refurbished ex-Israeli Kfirs upgraded to C.10. Postpone the decision or at least contract for new fighters, until more funding is available (Argentina had an economic crisis some years ago, am I right? Even had trouble keeping the A-4s in the air). Then look at the options, more F-16, Mirage 2000s and maybe F-15 will have entered the market,  definately ex-US/ex-European F-16s but based on the deal for the Kfir, even ex-Israeli F-16/F-15s may be available with advanced Israeli weapons and avionics. Argentina may then opt for a combination of new modern F-16s and upgraded ones (especially two-seaters) or a combination of refurbished/upgraded Mirage 2000s complimented by modern Mirage 2000-9s or Rafales. In other words it comes down to politics, French, American or Israeli option?

However if you'd want to buy new fighters now, with an in-service date between 2008 and 2010, go for the Gripen or F-16 Block 50/52/60.

[Globetrotter]

I don't like the idea of having to upgrade old fighters again, in the end they're obsolete: the design is from '60s; neither buying F-16 which are exrtemely expensive comparing to the Su-27, but it's true here politics have more influence than real tecnic vantages or else, don't you think? Chile has bought the F-16 and it would be good to have some "surprise", something dfifferent to take vantage of the differences. Now, the F-15 is really appealing , but I see it out of any possibilities due to the price and maintaining.
On the other hand, it's true that Argentina has recently passed through a crisis and we don't have much money to spend on aircraft, I would rather spend on education, that is what we really need for now.

Well, this is just my opinion about the topic,
Hope to hear from you all,
Thomas

[terminator]

i think argentina should buy russian equipment ,cause is cheap and its good (depending i f u can upgrade it and all that...)and is really good cause russian equipment can b fix or replaced in the field  unlike  more sophisticated equip. like american or european .f-15 are good ,but they are too expensive to mantain ,european equip. is like the american is too expensive ,mirages are old even upgraded 1s (damn even france dont want them),and asia is closed to latin america (thanks to the US ),  Israeli equip is good 2 it will b a good idea 2,if u do get russian equip. i think su-27's or even migs 29 will do it,cause argentina needs aircraft to fight in south america ,not the chinese or the north korean......sadly that our American problem

[Globetrotter]

Thaks for your opinion on the topic, terminator.
I agree with you when you say we should aquire some Russian aircrafts. I would love that Argentina AF bought some MiG-29 (OVT if possible ), they are cheaper than F-16, and, for, me, better. Well, the Su-35 wouldn't be bad, but it is surely more expensive.

Now, the real problem is that US won't like it if we buy from Russia (means nothing for me) and the government won't want that. You know, politics usually spoil it all.

Why I don't like the F-16. Appart from being more expensive than the MiG-29, the FAA once requested an order for some F-16 to USA. The answer was no. Tell me, would you stand like an idiot asking for the same, and watching how they tell you no again, losing your time?? (youknow where I would tell them to put their damn F-16) Maybe for pride... But this is just another point for the MiG-29.
I am really looking forward to the day when my country's AF will buy some Russian equipment.....

[terminator]

i know man ,and what really sucks is that our countries actually obey the US ,i mean wtf we should be able to buy whatever we want ,american equip. is too expensive ,look at venezuela or bolivia they dont care  what the US says they buy equip from wherever they want,but iguess our gov cant do anything about it..... :'( :'( :'( ,cause they basically control us :'( :'(.of course argentina ,colombia,and peru together will be able to afford an f-22 ,maybe we can buy one and share it ....(u know ''amar es compartir'')......

[Sergei]

Thomas from what you have taken, what Su-35 very expensive? Its cost makes 50-55 million dollars (it in view of falling a dollar exchange rate). Cost, for example, export variant F-15E makes not less than 70 million. And a difference big. Not in insult to the American colleagues... But Su-35, equipped by two engines AL-31FM-1 it is capable to carry out such maneuvers what even the American fighters of 5 generations cannot make and in a mine. Besides, without insults, but it is the truth.

The another matter, that a government of Argentina hardly will go on purchase Su-35's.

[Webmaster]

Thomas means the Su-35 more expensive than the MiG-29 I think. Compared to the F-16, which can cost more than a Su-35  in new condition, it still is more expensive to maintain and operate, so are those MiG-29s. Compared to the F-15, I don't know. But I am not even sure if the US would sell the F-15 to any Latin American countries, purely to 'not upset the regional stability'... when Chavez has some more Su-30MK2s and Su-35, maybe that will change.

Any Flanker is a good candidate for most of these countries thanks to its excellent range.

I consider the Rafale or Mirage 2000 a more likely candidate than any Russian aircraft for the FAA. But it will probably be F-16s eventually. Argentina should tell the US to stick those A-4s **** and request some F-16s again, since all other countries have F-16, equivalent or better than it. Want some Dutch ones as interim? Need a squadron now? You'll get more with the next defense cuts, and the rest when the JSF enters service. They don't last long, but are very cheap and MLU-4 standard.

[Cobra2]

I would say maybe the Mirage 2000. I'm not sure what you guys can afford but maybe a Mirage 2000.

[Sergei]

I have understood, that you have in view of. In my opinion, such assumptions make a start from the fact of purchase of Chile at Holland 7 F-16AM and 5 F-16BM. By the way, what age of these fighters (year of manufacture)? And how many Chile have paid Holland for their delivery?

But in a view of geopolitic rapproachement of Argentina with Russia, I, everything, shall risk to assume, that Argentina will get a small party of light fighters (for example. МiG-29SMT or MiG-29M) and 3-4 squadrons of heavy fighters (all the same Su-30МК2, and can and Su-30MK3). I think, all it will be diluted by several tens French Mirage-2000-9 (Mirage-2000-5).

Certainly, it especially my subjective opinion.

[Globetrotter]

In fact, what I meant was that the Su-35 is more expensive to mantain than a single engined airplane, or that even the MiG-29. Not the initial costs, but manteinance.

I don't believe we'd purchase Russian products right now, even thouhg I would like that a lot.

About the F-16... well, they are too highly priced, it is not good value for your money, I would buy a Su-35 instead... even though it costs more to mantain, I won't give my money for a simpler material. If we get F-16s, they HAVE to be better than Chile's. not that I am planning an invasion or something... but just to keep it on our side

The French also put their prices high... that's why my final word is: Fulcrum.

(not that the FAA will take my final word...

They don't last long, but are very cheap and MLU-4 standard. 

sorry, but if they don't last then sell them to Chile so they got the whole package, I'll go with something brand new please!!! I need something brand new!!! My mirages have 35 years!!! 

[Webmaster]

Consider this, the engine is the most maintenance demanding piece of equipment on a jet. Single-engine will cut the biggest maintenance item on your cost list by about 50%.

The Mirage 2000 production line has been closed or will be closed soon. So if you want something new from France, you have to cough up for the Rafale.

The fact that the MIIIs are so old is exactly why an interim purchase is likely. New ones have more lead-time. Russia delivers fast, true, but you'll still to bridge a gap of at least 5 years before they are fully operational. However, the Skyhawk force may be deemed sufficient for that?

True, the Chile contract (they bought 18 though, count another 4 single and 2 duos) is my inspiration behind my last post. However I don't think it will happen until maybe they get some US surplus or new F-16s first. Just because they are old and high-houred, they are only interesting to existing F-16 operators who need an interim solution until they can buy more new ones, or just need more two-seaters (Jordan). The problem with a non-F-16 operator buying them before the arrival of new F-16s with US support, is that older aircraft require more maintenance/engineering and spare parts support, so they probably will be too costly if you don't already have your F-16 logistics in place.

If I recall it correctly, Chile paid $180 Million for 18 jets, upgraded to MLU standard 3 and/or 4, including engineering training/support. They are Block 15s built between 1982-1988, updated in 1997-2003 to Block 20 MLU standard, and were M2 software standard, but I believe the US DOD requirement was to upgrade them to the latest MLU status before delivery, I think that brought them to M3 status as M4 consists of software updates for equipment not used by Chile? HMD, Link-16 for example? At least a $7.5 million contract with LM was needed before the sale could continue. And the US required the RNLAF to overhaul them before delivery. They have about 3,000 hours per airframe. Despite, the houred airframes, I still think it's pretty cheap. I actually haven't seen many cheaper second-hand jet deals with upgrade/overhaul included at this capability level.

But enough about F-16s and MiG-29s, latest news in the aviation press seem to suggest ex-AdlA Mirage 2000Cs again.