MILAVIA Forum

Military Aviation => Air Forces => Topic started by: terminator on December 17, 2006, 09:59:16 PM

Title: best air force in south america
Post by: terminator on December 17, 2006, 09:59:16 PM
Peru has migs,argentina mirages ,venezuela and chile f16's i strongly suggest u research before u vote ,dont just vote on Agentina because of their empanadas!!!!
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: Globetrotter on December 18, 2006, 12:50:07 AM
Hehehehe ;D I love empanadas, how do you know them??

back to the topic, not even the empanadas could save FAA :'(

And maybe Venezuela with those brand new Sukhois, or Brazil with the big AF.... It's difficult to say, but very interesting topic.

One thing that I can remark from the FAA are the pilots. In spite of not having the best of the trainments, their skills and bravery are widely known, thanks to the Malvinas War.
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: Viggen on December 18, 2006, 11:12:19 AM
Now this is a though question. I just know to little about this subject. I know which one i would choose as a favourite, but the best one is to hard for me to vote on at the moment.   :-\

Btw, welcome to the forum Terminator!  :)
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: terminator on December 18, 2006, 02:37:00 PM
GUYS plz i appreciate if u vote ,i know about empanadas cause iam south american,plz vote it takes less than a sec. ;D
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: Globetrotter on December 18, 2006, 02:43:02 PM
I just don't vote because I'm not sure, but I'm thinking about it, and when I'll be sure, I'll vote. Where are you from?
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: terminator on December 18, 2006, 03:02:19 PM
I am peruvian ,colombian ,and chinese ,that sucks men (about the argetinian air force) I have a lot of respect for u guys ,cause u actually stood up to England  :'(
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: Webmaster on December 18, 2006, 03:58:05 PM
GUYS plz i appreciate if u vote ,i know about empanadas cause iam south american,plz vote it takes less than a sec. ;D

Hi, welcome to the MILAVIA Forums! Yeah voting less than a sec, making up one's mind could take a bit longer. And like you said esp. combined with research.

It's difficult

Brazil has a large force, but only upgraded F-5s and a handful of Mirage 2000Cs are the best fighters. Shouldn't forget the AMX though. There's the Navy as well though with the A-4s,
Chile has the latest F-16s, and quite a number of second hand MLU's... however they are not fully operational yet. So Mirages (or similar) and F-5s.
Then Peru looks good with their MiG-29s and Mirage 2000s, however they don't have that many of them, right? But they have Su-22/25s as well...
Venezuela has Mirage 50s, F-16s, F-5s, all bit old and those F-5s are seriously in need of upgrade/overhaul. Those Su-30s are great, but how many are delivered just this month? only a few...
Colombia & Argentina will not be my vote...sorry.

When looking beyond the fighters, I'd say either Chile or Brazil, especially since they have AEW platforms.
 
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: terminator on January 14, 2007, 09:44:54 PM
are the f-16's chile just got the old 1's or blocks?i also heard a rumor venezuela will arm bolivia with sukhois (i think su -27's...i think)do u guy think that would affect the balance in south america?
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: Gripen on January 15, 2007, 06:14:28 AM
Brazil, mainly because they have US support. Allies look after each other, and we all know america has some, ah, unfriendly friends in South America
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: giel on January 15, 2007, 08:37:26 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZlzcCsb0T4
 brazillian airforce! ;)
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: terminator on January 16, 2007, 01:24:43 AM
wow!!
Title: best air force in south america
Post by: robotcop on January 26, 2007, 06:51:47 PM
i think that the best air force in south America is btw Brazil and Peru, mainly cause their pilot have a lot of skills, and their planes they would be though to beat in a dogfigth. >:D >:D >:D >:D
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: Gripen on January 28, 2007, 04:48:21 AM
Peru? I would of thought Brazil and Argentina
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: Globetrotter on January 28, 2007, 12:12:55 PM
Well, Gripen, thanks there for "Argentina" :P, but maybe if I talk a little bit about this...

Pilots in Argentina are very good, brave and those skills you would like a pilot to have... but our problem is the lack of new material. We lack of new planes. The best we have are Mirages IIIEA, from the sixties, not even close to a dogfighter; Super Etendard, not so bad for maritimal attacks, and so, but definitely not a good fighter, and performance is not astonishing, good combination with Exocet, proved; A-4AR, recently modernized, but again, lack of material: it is prepared to carry the AMRAAM (AIM-120) which we don't have, and don't think they'll sell to us, it's natural pourpose was not as a fighter, though it would perform very well as one, as shown on the CRUZEX III exercise, two A-4AR from the FAA "shot down" two F-5BR from the FAB (so here is where I am in doubt).
What Brazil has is a really big Air Force, apart from the new AWACS system...

I hope I didn't bored you all with this post...
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: Globetrotter on January 28, 2007, 12:16:13 PM
Now this is a though question. I just know to little about this subject. I know which one i would choose as a favourite, but the best one is to hard for me to vote on at the moment.   :-\

Btw, welcome to the forum Terminator!  :)

Which is your favourite?? ;D
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: Viggen on January 29, 2007, 12:28:44 AM
The Brasilian air force, but i know nothing about them or the others. The reason i choose them is because Brasilian air force cadettes escorted Ayrton Sennas cascet through Sao Paulo and the air force made a very nice fly by.  So my choice is based on more a feeling i felt in my heart, then a decision based on facts.   :-\
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: robotcop on January 29, 2007, 06:46:58 PM
i think thatPeru have a good air force but Brazil are the best in south america
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: tigershark on May 01, 2007, 11:07:24 PM
I'm new to this post but did read both sections and have questions and comments.   Maybe the people from South America might be able to help with this.   How many hours do South American pilots train per year?  Which country trains more and how is the training setup?   A lot has to do with funding like anything else but some smaller countries do very well with the little they have.   If I had to chose:
Brazil- They do very well with the F-5 fleet as far upgrading and training and now they have Mirage 2000-C, AMX attack jets that were upgrade, plus AWAC aircraft too.   All these assets train together and are exposure to other countries air forces in different types of training.   All good things for a well rounded air force to carry out it help that Brazil has the money and resources to do this.   

Next I would pick Chile
Ten modern F-16 C/D Block-52, 16 or 18 F-16 MLU ex-Holland upgraded Vipers, (1) Israeli made AWAC aircraft, Israeli upgraded F-5s, plus a number of Mirage 5/50/ maybe Kfir’s too.  I’m not sure on those numbers or if some were sold or retired.   They carry out training with other air forces which is always good.  From what I’ve about the US Air Force personnel saying Chile’s pilots and crew are very good and there air force is well run.   Brazil and Chile I think currently are the best.
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: fizzog17 on May 01, 2007, 11:49:58 PM
in my personal opinion  i would say brazil due to there technological advancement over the other countries, just my 2 cents  :)
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: tigershark on May 04, 2007, 02:28:26 AM
The first two are easy picking number 3, 4, 5, and6 are more difficult.
Venezuela-Has the money behind them and before Chavez stopped having brain cells his F-16s were still pretty good.   The VAF Vipers and Mirages were from what I’ve read were kept in good shape.   I’m not sure how many flight hours’ pilots received, and training and maintenance means everything to an air force.    The new Flankers pilots if trained right could be flying under two years solo and maybe being dangerous in 3 or 4 years.   Less if SIMs and good training were provided from the beginning so you can’t hold me to this time table.
Ecuador, Peru, Argentina   
Very tough Ecuador does very well with little they have and some of there aircraft are in deep storage. I only heard good things about there Kfir’s but funding problems are hurting them.   It’s a coin toss between Peru and Ecuador because from the little I was able to find out about Peru was only six or seven Mig-29s are flyable and there Mirage 2000s all need parts, so there not flown a lot.   It’s hard to get a number on how many are flyable or what shape there really in Peru isn’t such an open country.  Very difficult choice on paper Peru seems to have a little more but what shape there is unknown.   I use to know a guy from Ecuador and he would always tell me Ecuador trains there pilots better.   Both of these countries suffer from no money and lack of resources for new aircraft or even spare parts.   Both could do better but sadly both Ecuador and Peru’s air force have seen better times.    Argentina might have suffered more cut back then either Ecuador or Peru has.  It seems Argentina’s armed forces has been scaled down and a lot of there aircraft are dated.  A-4 are one of my favorite aircraft of all times don’t get me wrong it’s just in 2007 Argentina’s current fighters and attack aircraft have seen better days.   Experience wise all three Argentina 1982 and Peru-Ecuador 1995 wouldn’t have any or very few pilots from those years left flying so that’s a moot point.   Brazil pilots probably racks up the most time and stick experience now with Chile running second, both hold and take part in training with other air forces and that’s big and means a lot.   I’m sure Peru, Ecuador, and Argentina could do much better with more funding and all three have a good air force history.   Like with most things in life it comes down to money.   If somebody could give an update on Peru, Ecuador, and Argentina’s air force like how many jets are flying and what shape there please put it up, thanks in advance.    I read a few years back all of Peru’s Mirage Vs are in storage and won’t fly again.   Any updated info would be helpful.   
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: Globetrotter on May 04, 2007, 04:26:41 AM
I have to admit you are quite right about Argentina. Priority is being given to other sectors. And our aircraft are ageing, no matter how modernised they are.

A-4AR are quite better than the bare A-4. They have the basic F-16 radar, and they can fire AIM-120 (though we son't have of those) So it would turn into an useful machine and I would think twice before entering in combat with an AIM-120-armed airplane...
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: Webmaster on May 05, 2007, 04:00:20 PM
Argentina is looking at the Mirage 2000, in similar way Brazil did, refurbished to Mirage 2000-5 standard. Alternatively the French government is offering surplus Mirage F1CT to Argentina. Also the MS.760 Paris have been retired now more AT-63 trainers/light attack jets are entering service.

Peru had a dissimilar combat exercise with the USAF. F-16 vs M2000 and F-16 vs MiG-29 all with WVR weapons. The FAP detachment counted 3 Mirage 2000, and 3 MiG-29s. Of each trio, one was a double-seater. Peru has three Mi-29SE with better radar and R-77 capability, two of them were involved in this exercise although only with R-73. I think the MiG fleet (16 remaining is in much better condition since the ties with RAC MiG are better, 6/7 airworthy might be true, but I heard this number since 1999. The FAP is currently planning how to extend service life till 2020 and upgrade to have R-77 capability for all single-seaters.
They certainly got those Mirage 2000s back in the air, at least some of them.

When talking about Peru, I see that the Su-22, Su-25, A-37 are often forgotten because they are not fighters but bombers/strike aircraft. The conflict with Ecuador showed it needed a better air defense capability, but that doesn't mean these jets are completely useless.
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: Webmaster on May 05, 2007, 04:16:01 PM
I'm new to this post but did read both sections and have questions and comments.   Maybe the people from South America might be able to help with this.   How many hours do South American pilots train per year?  Which country trains more and how is the training setup?   A lot has to do with funding like anything else but some smaller countries do very well with the little they have.   If I had to chose:
Brazil- They do very well with the F-5 fleet as far upgrading and training and now they have Mirage 2000-C, AMX attack jets that were upgrade, plus AWAC aircraft too.   All these assets train together and are exposure to other countries air forces in different types of training.   All good things for a well rounded air force to carry out it help that Brazil has the money and resources to do this.   

Next I would pick Chile
Ten modern F-16 C/D Block-52, 16 or 18 F-16 MLU ex-Holland upgraded Vipers, (1) Israeli made AWAC aircraft, Israeli upgraded F-5s, plus a number of Mirage 5/50/ maybe Kfir’s too.  I’m not sure on those numbers or if some were sold or retired.   They carry out training with other air forces which is always good.  From what I’ve about the US Air Force personnel saying Chile’s pilots and crew are very good and there air force is well run.   Brazil and Chile I think currently are the best.


I have voted on Brazil now as well, primarily because they also do good in other areas beside fighters. I agree Chile comes second, with the new F-16s, upgraded F-5s and the Condor. The Mirage 5M Elkans were retired though. Not sure about the status of the Panteras. The second hand F-16 were MLUed block 5/15 F-16A/Bs. Old fighters yes, but good value for money considering the MLU upgrade. AIM-120 and PGM! I think they are MLU phase 1, 2, or 3 at max though. If they are smart they join the MLU program, and get them upgraded with phase 4 and 5 as well, adding JDAM, Link16, and helmet mounted sight. And get some LANTIRN pods.
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: Globetrotter on May 05, 2007, 04:47:12 PM
Oh please not Mirages F-1!!! How better can they be than the Mirage III? Yeah, sure, they must have some improvements, but that is not the same, in 7-8 years they should be replaced again! :-\
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: Webmaster on May 05, 2007, 09:09:21 PM
Hehe, but Globe, they can carry Exocets  ;)

France is just trying to get rid of them. Anyway, M2K or MF1, both will be short-term solutions. If M2K proves to expensive, the supersonic F-1 is still a better option than to let your fighter pilots keep their currency on the Pampa or prolong MIII/5 life till Argentina can buy some new jets. Anyway, it's just an option offered by France, it didn't say Argentina is considering the F-1.
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: Globetrotter on May 05, 2007, 09:55:36 PM
Yes, well, they can carry the Exo, but the Super Etendard too. I know, Super etendard specifications are completely not awesome, but we have it.

And if France is trying to get rid of them, maybe they are not as good as you may want. I dont know but in the F-16-60, F-35 and F-22 ((not that we can get that!!! ;D)) it seems not right to buy a plane 7-8 years younger than the one we have.

I have nothing against Mirage 2000, in fact I believe it is a very powerful machine, although it can become pricey, you know, even more than the F-16 and much more than MiG-29!

I `prefer less airplanes of the second option :)

What about the J-10? I think it must be cheap, and how good would it be?
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: tigershark on May 09, 2007, 03:16:44 AM
When talking about Peru, I see that the Su-22, Su-25, A-37 are often forgotten because they are not fighters but bombers/strike aircraft. The conflict with Ecuador showed it needed a better air defense capability, but that doesn't mean these jets are completely useless.
> I agree the Poland Su-22M4 upgraded models are useful and Peru having the tooling equipment and maintenance in place could support these little striker for years and keep the cost down.   I have never read a bad thing about Su-17/20/22 series aircraft everybody seem to like this aircraft a lot.   I assume a lot of second hand engines and other important parts could be bought from old stocks or retired aircraft in Russia and other countries as well.    The Peruvian models shot down during the war I think didn't have radar warning devices on them and didn't know they were picked up. 

> Su-25 is one of my favorite attack jets and beside it's slower overall speed could replace the Fritters outright.   A more modern design and very battle proven and in the land of cheap hand held SAMs a better investment.   There's a newer upgraded model called the Su-39 that according to Russia does everything but slice bread.   Anti-radar, AA-11, smart bomb+missiles, and even anti-ship missiles too.   I think if you put that little radar from the Mig-21/93 and should be able to shoot AA-12s.  Not that you would use a smaller slow attack/striker for long range radar guided missile shots, but it could be done.   

> A-37B a fine aircraft but just as sadly as the Su-20/22 Fritters old and come with maintenance issues and lack of spares made anymore.   At least with Fritters there are hundreds of ex-models made and laying around this isn't the case with the A-37Bs.   Unless the US comes up with a large supply of spare parts I might drop this type first.   Peru's air force have too many different types
to support and maintain droppings a few would be useful overall. 

The Mirage F1 isn't as far fetch of an idea as one may think.   You know a RC400 radar can fit into it's nose so MICA missile could be used?    Not bad for an old design that's easy to maintain and many second hands models to be bought.   

> It nice hearing about Peru's air force getting a few Mirage 2000-P's up plus a number of Mig-29s on paper until Venezuela's Flankers are operational Peru could be third on the list.   
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: Globetrotter on May 09, 2007, 12:59:47 PM
Do you know when the Ven's Flankers are going to be operational?

Are they planning to buy more of them? Or another type?
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: Gripen on May 11, 2007, 08:05:18 AM
What about the RAF? They have the Falkands.. and im guessing they'd have some type of plane there to keep an eye on their people, and maybe Argentina, incase they try to take the Falklands/Isla Malvinas (the proper name, Globetrotter knows what i mean)
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: Globetrotter on May 11, 2007, 08:56:22 PM
What about the RAF? They have the Falkands.. and im guessing they'd have some type of plane there to keep an eye on their people, and maybe Argentina, incase they try to take the Falklands/Isla Malvinas (the proper name, Globetrotter knows what i mean)

Oh no :-X :-\ They are not a south american air force. They are just occuping something that we had before 1833. They came and took it, don't know why, neither them know. They have a handfull of Tornados ADV and Hercules I guess, maybe some helos. But They are an European Air force, not South American.
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: Gripen on May 13, 2007, 07:22:43 AM
but they are based in South America.
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: Globetrotter on May 13, 2007, 05:11:55 PM
Yes, but they are not a south american Air Force.
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: terminator on June 29, 2007, 04:22:08 AM
hell yeah globe u tell em who's south american and whos not ,even if the brits have harriers in the malvinas(falklands sounds weird) they really wouldnt make much of a difference in anything ,they are better suited as support aircraft and this time iam sure argentina will own the RAF in south america ,but then again u cant underestimate the RAF pilots
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: tigershark on June 29, 2007, 06:10:47 AM
Doesn't have Tornado F.3 there now armed with Slammers or I think Sykflash missiles?   I didn't think Argentina pick up any better fighters then what they had.  As a interceptor the Tornado does well but the numbers still favor Argentina.   Don't get me wrong England could fly down Typhoon's in less then two days now they have better tanker assets.   I think Argentina's upgraded  A-4s have in flight refueling probes now plus tankers now so the range issue is gone for them.    The range issue hamper there efforts in 1982 war and they weren't really equipped correctly to operate at such ranges.  I think even a hundred miles closer and the whole layout of the war would have changed for Argentina.    I just watch the Falkland Island war on Wings or or one the military channel shows just a few days ago.  It was the show where there's an older guy and a younger guy talking.   They use cool blue and red colored graphics on flat maps I saw a couple of shows about different battle/wars.   I saw one about the battle of Midway it's a pretty good show overall sorry can't think of the name right now.   
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: Globetrotter on June 29, 2007, 02:37:40 PM
I am not saying we can retake the islands, not anything like it either ::)

It was said by term.... and yes, they have some tornados there, so that would make it "more impossible"

Obviously there is still the pacific way which is leading us to nowhere,cause UK friend's (USA) owns the place whre we disscuss..(UN).. ::) ::) ::)


Not much could have changed for Argentina... if they just got bored of kidding, they would just let a bomb in Buenos Aires, our capital city, where 1/3 of the Argentines live.... ANd believe me they really would have done so.... (They sunk a ship out of the war zone....)
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: tigershark on June 29, 2007, 07:48:44 PM
I totally agree if Argentina would have cause anymore damage England's next move would have been Argentinean mainland targets.  You could debate the war zone issue I guess, I wouldn't, because war is war and any military target is just that a target.   That English sub alone could have caused havoc along Argentina's coast just by itself.   Even a very modern navy has problems dealing with subs there just one of the nastiest weapons platform out there period.   I'm glad it didn't come to mainland attacks because over time tanker assets would have been made available.    Military wise I can disgust this but politically I can't really to be honest, I can't see what the war was even started for.   Military wise I think Argentina did many things well and a few more breaks there would have prolong this.  But it would have only been prolonged until either more English assets were moved into the region or US involvement.   Logically (I work with computers) certain things would have to happen to hold and keep the islands.   Argentina's armed forces: didn't have the right aircraft for the mission, lack tanker support, had little or no AWACS assets, with meant they operated blindly.   In modern warfare you don't last long without these things.   Argentina's navy like most would be was ill equipped to deal with England's well trained sub force.  They only have a handful of boats can you imagine how good a Captain has to be to get a boat or command?   Long range missile defense system would had to setup, anti-sub capabilities tripled for around the islands and Argentina's coast.   If the missile equipment fighters with tanker support would have been in place on the islands before England's fleet got there if would gave the Argentinean ground forces a shot.  It is always a 100 times easier after the fact to say this way "would have been better" or "they should have done that", it much harder when its real.   Being a outsider on this which I know I am I would say the Argentinean government at the time forced the military into something they couldn't do or weren't equipped for.   I hope I came across in a neutral way that's what I was trying for a lot of very brave men died in the war.   
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: Globetrotter on June 29, 2007, 10:33:11 PM
I agree in many things you said.

If you want an explanation, well, the war was started cause the ilegitimate governmante was looking for some extra support from people, cause it had none by this time. It was the decay of the military government, so they were looking for reputation with the war. (in cas ethey won, obviously) It was like a desperate move....

They also wanted to retake the islands, I guess, cause the formal and pacific negociations have been going on since 1833 when the first ROBBED them from us (It's not like most of you think, that we tried to rob them from UK in 1982, the issue is much older)
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: Sergei on August 13, 2007, 10:53:32 PM
In my opinion, for today among the states of South America there is no such state, whose Air Forces would be stronger, than Air Forces of other state of this continent.

However, Air Forces of Venezuela, Peru and Brazil (it is possible, Argentina) are most allocated. It is caused by that Russia has already put Venezuela 12 Su-30MK2 (an aviation squadron) and 12 more same fighters will be put till January, 1st, 2008.

Besides, it is impossible to forget, that Venezuela is interested in purchase 24 more Su-30MK2, 24-48 MiG-29M/M2 (MRCA), 18-20 fighters Su-35 (generation 4++) and 20-30 Su-25/Su-39.

As to Peru the government of this country has decided to lead major overhaul and modernization of all available for today available fighters MiG-29 and MiG-29UB (which have been bought from Belarus in 1998), 10 Su-25 and 8 Su-25UB (which also have been bought from Belarus), and also to exchange the Mirage-2000P on Mirage-2000-5 or Mirage-2000-9 with surcharge. Besides Peruvians are going to repair all the Mi-8, Mi-17, Mi-24 and Mi-35.

By the way, I did not know all as me to name planes Su-25 and Su-39. In Russian it sounds as "shturmovik"i. And how in English name a class of self-summer A-10A or A-10C " Thunderbolt II "???
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: Webmaster on August 14, 2007, 01:49:58 AM
Good question. I know what you mean. I think the closest to shturmovik as translation would be attack aircraft. The class name for such aircraft is just attack aircraft, hence the A in the designation. But as that covers many aircraft including what in Russian would be "frontline bombers", close air support or ground attack aircraft is better suited for the A-10. Of which CAS probably comes closest to the A-10/Su-25 compared to other ground attack aircraft, as that's the role they predominantly undertake. Both are also called tankbusters or tankkillers unofficially.

If you look at overall capability, and not just the fighters, Peru and Venezuela still have a long way to go compared to Brazil.
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: Globetrotter on August 14, 2007, 02:09:42 AM
Well, venezuela has the mighty Su-30, so that would be the top aircraft in South America, I believe. But they have 12 or 24 what doesn't get near the cca 150 aircraft Brazil has... I think they have the best airforce right now (Brazil).
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: Sergei on August 14, 2007, 04:30:31 PM
Well, venezuela has the mighty Su-30, so that would be the top aircraft in South America, I believe. But they have 12 or 24 what doesn't get near the cca 150 aircraft Brazil has... I think they have the best airforce right now (Brazil).

I agree, that Air Forces of Brazil for today the most powerful in all South America. But... At Venezuela the most dynamically developing Air Forces. I think, by 2010 Air Forces of Venezuela will be the strongest in South America. Anyway all goes to it.
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: Globetrotter on August 14, 2007, 05:09:09 PM
Oh! And we also should sum up points to each one for having combat experience! Not all of the SA AFs have.... If I am not wrong, only Argentina, Ecuador and Peru have experience... Well, Brazil sent some airplanes to fight in Italy WW2... but those were still props and not even the tactics are appliable any more...

Colombia and Brazil have anti-drug dealers experience.
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: Sergei on August 14, 2007, 10:08:31 PM
You have in view of fighting experience of Argentina during war for Falkland (Malvin) islands? At all respect for the fallen fighters it was 25 years ago? Those pilots (hardly among the Argentina pilots people were younger than 25 years) already either do not serve, or have served to generals. By the way, something is known to you in this occasion?

As to experience of antiinsurgent struggle and struggle with drugdealer's armies also Venezuela has similar experience.

I simply wish to tell that Air Forces of Venezuela - most dynamically developing among the countries of Latin America. Neither it is more, nor it is less.
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: tigershark on August 18, 2007, 06:03:49 PM
Welcome Sergei

I agree with your 2010 statement about Venezuela's air force by that time with good training Venezuela's AF should be the most powerful in SA.   I think a follow up order for more Flankers will be placed within a years time because the current amount isn't enough to fully cover all their fighter needs.   I interested in your opinion on how Venezuela AF could improve themselves, I think some AWACS aircraft would be a good direction to go in. 
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: Sergei on August 19, 2007, 05:21:44 PM
Greetings, nonpilot!

I consider, that a government of Venezuela, led by Ugo Chavez, will strengthen, first of all, Air Forces of the country by active purchases of new aviation technics. Especially, Venezuela has enough financial assets for similar purchases.

I think, that Venezuela in 2008 will get at Russia a party (18-24 units) of heavy fighters Su-35 and Su-35UB. Especially, government of Venezuela  declared, that it want to have in similar purchase. Then, most likely, purchase of party Su-39's (20-30 will follow; most likely 24), for replacement of out-of-date planes OV-10A/OV-10E "Bronko"/"Super Bronko".

Besides Venezuela, for certain, will get partyMiG-29's (maybe, it will be MiG-35's). It is enough to recollect, how to Venezuela for demonstration displays arrived MiG-29M.
Certainly, presence of a plenty иfighters and others fighting self-summer will demand due maintenance. And in these conditions, Venezuela be required self-years of distant radar-tracking detection and prompting (most likely, A-50ME), and also planes-tankers (IL-78MK; for example, India bought at Russia such 6 planes).

Certainly, such scale purchases of military technics will demand significant financial assets. Somewhere the order of 7-10 billion dollars. However, as all knows, at Venezuela huge stocks oil + almost untouched natural gas. And it very much serious.

nonpilot, how you consider?
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: tigershark on August 19, 2007, 06:59:07 PM
In there confirmed reports on Venezuela buying Mig-29Ms I thought that was pre-Flanker time?    Venezuela air force could replace their Mirage 5/50s with Su-39s at least in the attack and anti-shipping roles too.   

Belarus in 1998 aircraft sale to Peru
I read that Russia was slightly involved in the Su-25 portion of the sale I guess for spare parts or maybe service but not the Mig-29 Fulcrums.   Was it just because Belarus lower prices or were their other reasons.   I used to know somebody from Peru's air force who told me that the Peru's AF like the Fulcrums from Belarus better then the three SE models bought from Russia directly.    I can't think of what he said but there was something on the Belarus Fulcrums that didn't come on the SE models from Russia but to be honest I can't remember what it was any ideas?.   

Is Belarus capable of upgrading Fulcrums themselves or is some Russian involvement still needed? 

Does Belarus have more Fulcrums to see?

Thanks
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: Sergei on August 20, 2007, 03:30:39 PM
Unfortunately, all electronics established on Belarus MiG-29BM is Russian. For this reason, Belarus cannot is completely independent spend modernization of fighters MiG-29, no less than modernization of fighters Su-27UB.

As to replacement of fighters-bombers Mirage-50 of Air Force of Venezuela... I consider all, that they will be replaced by fighters Su-35 and Su-35UB because Su-39's it is supposed to replace light aircraft OV-10A and Ov-10E which are based on an air base in city Maracaibo.

As if to deliveries aircraft technicians Belarus in Peru actually Russia in 1999 has put Peru 3 fighters MiG-29SE (an export variant of fighter MiG-29S). Their number has reached 21 units, however 2 fighters put by Belarus in 1998 were wrecked. Thus, as of January, 1st, 2007 the structure of Air Forces of Peru included not 21, but 19 fighters MiG-29S/SE/UB. However in a condition there are only several fighters.

At me such question: how many Venezuelan fighters F-16A and F-16B are in a good condition? In fact, the USA some years do not deliver Venezuela spare parts for these fighters. I somewhere read, that deliveries of spare parts have stopped almost right after attempts of overthrow Ugo Chavez.

I know, that it is a little not in a theme, but... Yesterday in weekly telecast Ugo Chavez has declared, that between Russia and Venezuela the contract on delivery to Venezuela 5000 sniper rifles Dragunov (calibre 7.62) SVD is signed. Cost of the contract makes about 10 million dollars (will be delivered not only rifles, but also, naturally, patrons to them). Besides it became known, that Belarus will put Venezuela of 150 thousand sights of night vision for АК-103 which Russia has put Venezuela.

Here so.
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: tigershark on August 20, 2007, 09:16:00 PM
Hi Sergei
There was something on the Fulcrums from Belarus that the Peruvians liked more then the SE Fulcrums bought from Russia directly.  The guy I knew his e-mail is bouncing back so I can't asked him.   

Mirage 50 fighter-bomber > If you take away the top speed of the Mirage 50 the Su-25/39 does more overall and is more modern as well.   I'm a firm believer in not putting a $60 million dollar Flanker in a close ground support mission down low if I don't have too.  A Su-25 does that job well and with some newer upgrades use a number of stand-off weapons too.   

Sergei let me ask you a question would it be cheaper for a country like Peru to more Fulcrums from Belarus and have Russia or Israel to upgraded them or just go Russian from the beginning? 
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: Sergei on August 20, 2007, 11:52:40 PM
I consider, that available Peru 19 MiG-29 it is necessary to repair and modernize in MiG-29SMT in Russia. The matter is that Israelis cannot lead major overhaul Peruvian MiG-29's. And for modernization of one MiG-29 Israel, most likely, will request not less than 10 million dollars. And on quality the fighter modernized by Israelis hardly will have higher fighting efficiency, rather than MiG-29SMT. Cost of modernization MiG-29 in MiG-29SMT makes 7 million dollars. Thus, if to make simple mathematical calculation, it turns out, that Peru will pay Russia of 190 million dollars for major overhaul and modernization of 19 fighters.

As to the Belarus variant of modernization... It would be also a good variant.
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: terminator on November 14, 2007, 02:31:49 AM
Peru's Air force are in some serious need of modernization sadly very few of our mig-29's actually fly or are fit for combat same thing with our mirages ,luckily the peruvian armed forces put the FAP (peruvian air force)modernization and expansion as their priority.btw sergei,nonpilot are you guys south american? you sure know alot about the subject
Title: Re: best air force in south america
Post by: tigershark on November 16, 2007, 05:20:38 AM
Hi terminator
No I'm from the USA born and raised I'm just big South American aviation fan and I follow Peru's air force closely.  If I controlled Peru's air force decsions for and funding for the next five years I would:
1. I would like to see Peru cut down the different types of aircraft they fly and maintain.   This is where I would start and downsize bases but not personnel.   
2. Fighter and fighter needs - I'm a big Mirage 2000 fan but lets face it Peru's air force doesn't have many around 8 to 10?  Most are not flyable because of lack of parts and no money for daily operational cost.   Sell them now while they still have value and maybe some interested buyers.   For now split up the Fulcrums into two mini squadron one north near Ecuador and one south Chile.  This is the best they could do with the assets they really the Mirage 2000s were basically grounded anyway.   Put any money from the sales of the Mirages into getting more the Fulcrums flying again.   Some part of the Fulcrums production lines must be open for Algeria SMT Fulcrums so piggyback on them and maybe pick up 4 to 6 lesser Fulcrums just to bring up Peru's numbers.   Then wait, stop and think it over carefully your next steps. 

more later