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Military Aviation => Air Forces => Topic started by: Viggen on October 17, 2007, 04:51:16 AM

Title: Thailand buys Gripen, or will they?
Post by: Viggen on October 17, 2007, 04:51:16 AM
Keep your eyes open today at 08:00 hours Swedish time. Thailand will reviel if they will buy 12 Gripens!
Hopes are high, but there is some controversy to the deal. They prefferd the US F-16C D´s, however US will not sell the jets to Thailand because of the recent couw/cuu or how the **** its spelled.

Swedish peace organisation want SAAB to withdraw from the deal if they want to buy the aircrafts. They think its a crime against Thailand and humanity to sell fighters to a country that is instable at the moment. (But spending your vacation there is ok.) They also think it could damage the Swedish securitypolicy. They want the Swedish goverment to stop the deal if SAAB dont.

Title: Re: Thailand buys Gripen, or will they?
Post by: alyster on October 17, 2007, 09:47:41 AM
coup d'état [ku de ta] It's french  :-\ I don't like it either, why can't they keep it simple  ???
Title: Re: Thailand buys Gripen, or will they?
Post by: Webmaster on October 18, 2007, 12:38:17 AM
The US weren't jumping to sell before that either, because Thailand wants/wanted to pay part of the deal with frozen chicken. Reportedly even Russia wasn't sure what to do with them...

Any update by the way?
Title: Re: Thailand buys Gripen, or will they?
Post by: Raptor on October 18, 2007, 08:29:21 AM
Frozen chicken. HAHAHA.

It's spelt coup, by the way, Viggen.

Sounds interesting. I'll keep an eye on the papers and keep you all informed if something big happens.
Title: Re: Thailand buys Gripen, or will they?
Post by: Viggen on October 18, 2007, 01:41:33 PM
Strange part is, no updates!! I really thought it would be on the frontpage of the newspapers. But not a sound or a written line since.  ???

If you guys find any info before me, please let me know. I want to know how this mess will end.  :)
Title: Re: Thailand buys Gripen, or will they?
Post by: alyster on October 18, 2007, 02:17:04 PM
Lol, you want to get the frozen chickens all to yourself?
Title: Re: Thailand buys Gripen, or will they?
Post by: Viggen on October 18, 2007, 03:04:51 PM
Maybe, i have heard the the meat from these birds taste like chicken... ;)

I dident even know about the bird stuff until Niels mentioned it here. This feels like a badly written comedy!  ;D
Title: Re: Thailand buys Gripen, or will they?
Post by: Webmaster on October 18, 2007, 04:57:31 PM
Update: http://www.gripen.com/en/MediaRelations/News/2007/071017_thai.htm

Quote
Thailand selects Gripen and Erieye

In Bangkok, Thailand yesterday the Thai government announced the down-selection of the Saab Gripen new generation fighter, and the Saab Erieye Airborne Early Warning (AEW) system to meet its national defence needs.

10/17/2007 | The Thai Cabinet has approved a budget of 34,400 billion baht (US$ 1.1 billion) for the Royal Thai Air Force (RTAF) to procure 12 (twelve) Gripen multi-role fighters, to replace its ageing fleet of F-5 B/E aircraft, and 2 (two) Saab Erieye AEW aircraft, together with associated equipment and services. Negotiations between Thai and Swedish government officials will now commence in order to conclude a formal agreement.

 
The procurement process is divided into two phases; Phase 1 (one) covers the procurement of 6 (six) Gripen fighters, including spare parts and training, and 1 (one) Saab Erieye AEW system aircraft in the sum of 19,000 billions baht (US$ 600 million), within a 5 (five) year budgetary commitment from 2008 to 2012. In Phase 2 (two), the RTAF intend to procure an additional 6 (six) Gripen fighters together with associated equipment, spare parts and training, and a second Saab Erieye AEW system aircraft in the sum of 15,400 billions baht (US$ 500 million) within a five  year budgetary commitment from 2013 to 2017.

Swedish Minister for Foreign Affairs, Carl Bildt says in a comment on Thailand and Gripen. “I welcome the decision from the Royal Thai government to start negotiations with the Swedish government, to purchase Gripen fighter aircraft and the Saab Erieye Airborne Early Warning (AEW) system. This decision once again confirms that Gripen is a world class and cost effective system. The selection of Gripen was made in fierce competition with advanced US and Russian systems”.

“We must now wait for the result of the formal negotiations that will now commence between the Swedish and Thai authorities. When a formal agreement is in place, this will be managed in accordance with the appropriate export legislation, rules and regulations” he stated.

Since 2003, the RTAF has been evaluating a suitable replacement for its ageing fleet of F-5 B/E fighters to undertake the air defence and protect the national interests of the Kingdom of Thailand. In its evaluations, the RTAF considered the requirements of suitable new generation aircraft to replace its F-5 B/E aircraft, including the need for true multi-role/swing-role capability, new generation flight control systems, communications systems, avionics systems and a weapons system. The new aircraft needed to be capable of joint operations and tactical data linking with allied ground, maritime and air forces, within an effective command and control system. In addition, the costs of operation, maintenance and through-life costs needed to be the lowest of aircraft of the same type.

Following its evaluation process, and in consideration of these critical performance issues, the RTAF has selected the Gripen multi-role fighter, manufactured by Saab to meet its future defence needs.

It is planned that the new Gripen fighters will be delivered into operational service in 2010. Sweden has also offered the Gripen fighters with a 2 (two) years maintenance and spare parts support package.

Moreover, other benefits in the form of Thai – Sweden co-operation are proposed to enhance economic security – such as industrial co-operation, maintenance and logistics co-operation, technology transfer, investment co-operation, export as well as science and technology.


Decision is made, but contract yet to be signed.

Once again another good Gripen deal it seems: 12 Gripen + 2 Erieye AEW aircraft + parts, training and equipment for US$ 1.1 Billion.
Title: Re: Thailand buys Gripen, or will they?
Post by: Viggen on October 18, 2007, 06:00:56 PM
Thank you Niels!!!  :D

But im still consired about the deal. It may still not go through because of the Swedish peace organisation.  :(
Title: Re: Thailand buys Gripen, or will they?
Post by: WRCKid on October 18, 2007, 07:49:58 PM
Word, I also found this...(which is esentially the same thing)

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/thailand-buying-jas-39-gripens-awacs-04022/
Title: Re: Thailand buys Gripen, or will they?
Post by: Raptor on October 19, 2007, 10:52:09 AM
The frozen chicken sounds good.

1.1 billion seems like a little little, don't you think...?
Title: Re: Thailand buys Gripen, or will they?
Post by: alyster on October 19, 2007, 01:02:47 PM
Knowing swedish governmnt then swedish "homeless" are going to eat meat for years  ;D

I hope we get Grippens too by 2019. SAAB hopes the same, as I read from their home page.
Title: Re: Thailand buys Gripen, or will they?
Post by: Viggen on October 19, 2007, 04:31:52 PM
If SAAB sells Gripen to a country that may use them for war and it would do "very good" in combat. That would increase its apeal on the market, right? But why cant SAAB or General Dynamics sell their equipment to countries where they had a coup or being instable? It does not make any sense, weapons of any form are destructive, no matter in whos hands it´s in.

We cant sell you these aircraft because you might use them for their true purpouse.... ??? That is just bullshit! (pardon my french).  >:(

I hope the deal goes through, both for Sweden and Thailands sake.
Title: Re: Thailand buys Gripen, or will they?
Post by: Globetrotter on October 20, 2007, 03:06:44 AM
sorry to go offtopic, but isn't 12 years a little bit too much? I mean, you have planned  a lot of time!

Anyway, it is better than our situation, we don't even know when we're gonna change the IIIEA :P hehe
Title: Re: Thailand buys Gripen, or will they?
Post by: Raptor on October 20, 2007, 12:21:01 PM
I wrote a very nice and long reply, then something happened to the browser.

In short, anyway, weapons are deterrent. It wouldn't be nice if Lockheed Martin was embargoed by suppliers and looses all its customers.
Title: Re: Thailand buys Gripen, or will they?
Post by: Viggen on October 20, 2007, 02:36:12 PM
I wrote a very nice and long reply, then something happened to the browser.

In short, anyway, weapons are deterrent. It wouldn't be nice if Lockheed Martin was embargoed by suppliers and looses all its customers.

True, but the rules are still confusing. How come Israel got to buy F-16´s, while we all know that they are used in a offensive way, by bombing palestinians?  ???
Title: Re: Thailand buys Gripen, or will they?
Post by: alyster on October 20, 2007, 03:49:52 PM
Because if any senator / congreman speaks out against Israel he gets a major negative campain against him next elections. Carter(if I'm not harshly mistking with the name) has the luxury as an expresident to speak up, others don't.

Your comparison is good. In Lebanon Israel even bombed a red cross convoy, not to mention stuff like water supply, power plants which were needed for hospidals and so on.
Title: Re: Thailand buys Gripen, or will they?
Post by: Raptor on October 22, 2007, 08:58:28 AM
Viggen-

what he said. ;D

Israel bought F-16s. Have they purchased any recently? I'm not sure. But from what the media feeds us here, Israel does it in a offensive-defensive way.
Title: Re: Thailand buys Gripen, or will they?
Post by: Viggen on October 22, 2007, 01:43:47 PM
Ok, they have not bought any recently. But they still need ammo, engines need spareparts etc etc...  :)
Title: Re: Thailand buys Gripen, or will they?
Post by: alyster on October 22, 2007, 02:16:59 PM
Recently? Does it really matter?
I mean...
1956 Israeli-Arab war (a colonial war btw)
1967 Six Day war ("pre-emtive defensive strike" in short attack)
1981 a strike against iraqi nuclear facility*
1982 invasion of Lebanon
2006 Lebanon war
2007 Strike against Syria
... were not excatly what I'd call defense  ::)

*F-16s went into a dive.  >:D

BTW don't they have 50 or something Falcons on order?
Title: Re: Thailand buys Gripen, or will they?
Post by: Raptor on October 31, 2007, 09:07:35 AM
I see. The US has done much worse.
Argentina went all out and lost a war... Hooray Harriers! ;D

50 Falcons is quite a lot. But the US supports the Israeli's anti-whatever policy. *Shrug*
Title: Re: Thailand buys Gripen, or will they?
Post by: Webmaster on November 02, 2007, 01:32:22 AM
They are taking deliveries of new F-16I "Sufa", as we speak. They are Block 52 two-seaters, with CFT and lots of Israeli components of course. 50 ordered in 2000, 52 more in 2001, first deliveries in 2003, final deliveries in 2009. Deal of 4.5 billion USD.

US promised Israel some 30 billion military aid for the next 10 years. Few more years and they'll start shopping for a fifth gen fighter, F-35 probably...

Quote
If SAAB sells Gripen to a country that may use them for war and it would do "very good" in combat. That would increase its apeal on the market, right? But why cant SAAB or General Dynamics sell their equipment to countries where they had a coup or being instable? It does not make any sense, weapons of any form are destructive, no matter in whos hands it´s in.

Politics. Actually the "rules" depend on what the government's policies are and how they are prioritized, more than whether the weapon will be used yes or no. Deliveries weapons would not reflect the government's policy of protesting human right violations, defusing the instability, not recognizing the new goverment, or not fuel an arms race or support a regime, or whatever the case. If the policy of supporting an important ally is more important than such things, weapons are delivered even though they are not just a deterrent and actually used. It's just politics... it's not as simple as weapons are good vs weapons are bad.

The Netherlands (initially) supported the Operation Iraqi Freedom politically, but not military. Which was actually something like saying, we don't want a war, don't want conflict, but we must agree with and support the US on anything they do and Saddam is bad, so okay you can invade another country and kill people...

Anyway, I think the Swedish government will add up all the pros and cons of this deal, and let it go through. Since the US reluctance to sell them new F-16s, I wonder if there will be any intervention from the US on this though, because of the US components? Thailand has not been placed under a US embargo, right? Otherwise, it would be time to fit the EJ200?
Title: Re: Thailand buys Gripen, or will they?
Post by: Viggen on November 02, 2007, 01:47:12 AM
Embargo?, Not that i know of.  The EJ200 is long overdue, they should of allready fitted it.  ;D

I hate stuff like this, first news all over the papers and on TV, now not a word.  If the deal is so important, why dont they let us know anything. Hate being kept in the dark.

I dont think there will be an intervetion from US, and Sweden has learned its lesson from the Viggen-era. US might even make some money of it, because of that. Im more worried about these peace-fanatics who might get some strong political assistance (backup)  and mess the whole deal up.  :)
Title: Re: Thailand buys Gripen, or will they?
Post by: Globetrotter on November 02, 2007, 07:42:59 PM
Raptor, what do you mean with the allusion to the Malvinas war? I think I missed something
Title: Re: Thailand buys Gripen, or will they?
Post by: tigershark on November 09, 2007, 10:06:47 PM
Quote
Recently? Does it really matter?
I mean...
1956 Israeli-Arab war (a colonial war btw)
1967 Six Day war ("pre-emtive defensive strike" in short attack)
1981 a strike against iraqi nuclear facility*
1982 invasion of Lebanon
2006 Lebanon war
2007 Strike against Syria
... were not excatly what I'd call defense

There are three sides to most issues and the way they were listed made it sound like everything Israel did or does is wrong.  England and France have a lot to be blamed for the way the region was split up and way they handle many situations.   People forget that Israel made that country out an s____ hole in the desert not anybody else.  And Lebanon a problem created by Syria to get the focus out its own country and there many internal problems.   The areas where Israel was before the wars or in 1948 was not filled up with so many people.   Remember that countries like Jordan, Syria, and Egypt kick thousand and thousand of Palestine’s out there country and forced them into places like the west bank and other surrounding areas.  They were the second class citizens in all this country I listed and weren’t wanted, but that gets over looked by the press.  They were problems for the English and French before the Israeli were in power but that gets over looks as well.   Jordan’s king killed hundreds and basically forces them out of his country and onto Israeli’s door step.  Every country I named had internal problems at the time and most still does, and the best way to control people is give them a cause.  That cause is Israel it’s easy to make the problem on the next block and not your.  Its basic get and keep the masses busy hating something else and they won’t realize how bad there own country is.   Remember support in this region basically are the people supplying you and your family with your next meal, it’s poor and rough region to live it.   None of these three governments want any extra internal problem it’s better to keep the crazies pointing outward.   All these three countries and region were fighting each other for thousands of years even before 1948.   If you take away the Christ thing more people would be on the Israeli’s side but its how we were raised and it’s instilled in our heads, there bad no matter they do basically.   And how many countries give back what they won in wars right! but because there Israel and they should?   Hundreds of countries around the world would have change there borders if we did that.   What double standards we place on them that’s because the deep rooted religion thing.  We blame them for something we don’t even know they did that thousands of years ago.   Religion is very powerful and most wars in the past and in current times are still being waged because of it.   Because somebody wrote something a few hundreds years after the fact why weren’t the Romans blame for killing Christ didn’t they put Christ on the cross and stab him with the sword?  Rome held all the power back then Israeli’s were salves to and being killed daily.  Rome was the regional power they were in firm control, and they were the law.  Funny thing about writing history is what were they going to do blame themselves?  It’s always easier blaming somebody else right even in current times we do that.   I have somebody who from the region who lives on my block and his 72 year mother lives three blocks from the former PLO HQs and both sides do nasty things to each other just so I’m clear on that.  Nobody is perfect and there is bad being done to and from.  It’s always outsider keeping things active there it’s never just the two sides that live there aloud to work things out.   My friend has been in the US for 28 years and he’s like the Mayor of my block, but he even says 95 percent of all the weapons and bad people and support is from Iran, passing through Syria.   Did Israel take land from Iran too?   Its simple religion hate in the name of god we keep killing ourselves.     
Title: Re: Thailand buys Gripen, or will they?
Post by: alyster on November 09, 2007, 10:29:53 PM
Wow you kinda remind me my third world problems' lector. I know there's alot of sides there. After all we may as well blame the fundametalists (of both sides). But the simple fact is that the dates above were Israeli offensives, Israel still does occupy Palestinian lands, illegally btw. So if Thailand can't get Gripens/Falcons cause of a coup and a "danger of using them in offensive way" then why should Israel get such aid packages?

I'm not against aiding Israel, I have many online friends from there, many from who were in the last Lebanon conflict, but the excuse to not to sell planes to Thailand is hilarious compared to Israel.
Title: Re: Thailand buys Gripen, or will they?
Post by: tigershark on November 10, 2007, 05:13:46 PM
Sorry for lecture it was we bit long maybe when the fundamentalists as you call them stop shooting rockets and blowing up people for good, maybe Israel will move out.    Until it's just Palestinians and Israeli's trying to work things out (basically my entire adult life went by without this happening) nothing will change to much hate still being brought into the pot.   Outsiders must go or the suffering won't stop on both sides.   I'll stop on this topic.

Quote
alyster
but the excuse to not to sell planes to Thailand is hilarious compared to Israel.
What does Israel have to do with in the first place?   

Many countries sell weapon,aircraft, etc which turn out to be used offensively look at half of Africa, how did Israel get sucked into this again?    Would the Swedish government have to make this decision about Thailand government? 

Quote
Viggen
True, but the rules are still confusing. How come Israel got to buy F-16´s, while we all know that they are used in a offensive way, by bombing Palestinians?
My friend Viggen the US did sell advance F-16s to Israel to bomb the Palestinians they were sold for like in the past, if they were attacked by one or more countries at the same time that were getting for free or off-set price Russian weapons by the ton.   Maybe if some of those six foot long rockets mounted on a light truck weren't allowed to just drive down your friendly  Palestinian street maybe the need to knock them out wouldn't come up as much.   Jets or fast movers are basically used for attacking a larger enough target to be useful or speed is needed to reach a target, before the killers can run and hide among the non killing people who live in happy Palestinian.   Twenty people on the street won't see where the truck or the killers who launched went because it's the Palestinian thing to do, to look the other way.  You know keep hiding and supporting the people that bring your country down.    But sixty-seven people will see the F-16 and can even read the serial number on it's tail fin.  Some of the nice Palestinians will even rent a shed or a place to park the truck too, but that's ok.   And the next day in the press the poor Palestinian lost his shed that was passed down to him from his fathers fathers fathers, right.   And the best part will be he'll say Israeli's F-16 war planes sold by the United States in semi clear English for no reason just blew up my shed.  And I thought only my country was covered so badly in the press and rip down at every chance possible,wow.   

alyster, Viggen - javascript:void(0);
Smiley  - you guys are like my favorite posters
Title: Re: Thailand buys Gripen, or will they?
Post by: alyster on November 10, 2007, 10:26:31 PM
A woman from CNN whose name i sadly can't recall made a film about "God's Jewish Worriors" From the picture I get from there most of the settlements are settled also by fundamentalists, who think that they own that land because God gave it to them and their princible is to make as much settlements as possible to keep the land. So I don't look at it from one single side.
I think we got into this Israeli topic due to a comparison with teh thai case. Someone atlist mentioned it above. This is quite logical, Israel is the most extream example of first world military contracts and aid. But you are right, enough of this topic.

About Africa... well alot of the weapons were sold to there at Cold war era, to support the first world friendly regimes. Nowdays things have changed on that level.
Title: Re: Thailand buys Gripen, or will they?
Post by: Viggen on November 10, 2007, 11:52:09 PM
Many countries sell weapon,aircraft, etc which turn out to be used offensively look at half of Africa, how did Israel get sucked into this again?  My fault, i used Israel as an example.  :) 

Would the Swedish government have to make this decision about Thailand government?  Yes!

Quote
My friend Viggen the US did sell advance F-16s to Israel to bomb the Palestinians they were sold for like in the past, if they were attacked by one or more countries at the same time that were getting for free or off-set price Russian weapons by the ton.   

Quote from webmaster: "They are taking deliveries of new F-16I "Sufa", as we speak. They are Block 52 two-seaters, with CFT and lots of Israeli components of course. 50 ordered in 2000, 52 more in 2001, first deliveries in 2003, final deliveries in 2009. Deal of 4.5 billion USD."

This is not about blaming countries for their oppinions. I just think its hypocritical to take a stance like this, not making a deal because the weapons might be used for war.  :)
Title: Re: Thailand buys Gripen, or will they?
Post by: tigershark on November 11, 2007, 04:08:24 AM
Hi Viggen
But it's hypocritical of your government right or am I missing something?   Moving along I think they should sell them it's a cut throat market we know used Vipers or Flankers will be sold in it's place in a heartbeat.   And if the Falcon production lines stay open for a large Taiwan order they won't be used ones there be brand new with AESA radar's in them armed with Slammers.   Viggen I hate to say it but time isn't on your country's side if they wait to long.

We always here of used Vipers being sold but does Russia ever sell used Flankers?  I'm sure they must have them Su-27 or maybe some Su-30s produced for sales but never sold?    Any C/D Viper from the United States is going to have a lot of hours on it's frame maybe some Su-27s would be better deals?   Didn't Indonesia buy a few Su-27s not Su-30s some years back?   

alyster- no more on the other topic as you can see back to aviation smile face (my smile faces don't work right)

Peace anybody
Title: Re: Thailand buys Gripen, or will they?
Post by: Viggen on November 14, 2007, 05:45:55 PM
Hi nonpilot!

Nope, your not missing. You are right, this is what i was trying to tell, that its hypocritical. But this goes not just for Sweden but for many other counties that are involved with some sort of weapons export. Its like they are trying to justify the deals so they can sleep better at nights.

He he, has time ever been on Sweden´s side?  ;)
Title: Re: Thailand buys Gripen, or will they?
Post by: Webmaster on November 16, 2007, 01:37:42 AM
Any news Viggen? Or when will the Swedish government make their decision to approve/disapprove the deal?
Title: Re: Thailand buys Gripen, or will they?
Post by: Viggen on November 16, 2007, 02:45:26 AM
No news at all, seems like they are really keeping the lid locked. They are probably hoping that ppl forget about the deal or something. Maybe Thailand got a better offer?  ???