Which Air-Force is Best II

[Raptor]

I was thinking, let's do an open-ended debate on each air-force in turn, with someone giving the low-down on each air-force. For example, Webby gives RNLAF, Cobra does USAF, i do RSAF (Republic of Singapore Air Force, not Royal Saudi Air Force) and Viggen, well, you get the picture. Anybody in?

[Globetrotter]

I think it would be a very cool thing to do... if I could presume with my airforce, which is defenitely not the best...

[Viggen]

Sure, i could give it a go. 

[Sergei]

I think the best airforce in the - USAF.
It's a reality. Though, certainly, I very-very much would like, that the most powerful Air Forces in the world will be VVS of Russia.

[Raptor]

Well, sounds like fun.

I'm not asking which is the best air force in terms of the most hi-tech and showy aircraft. If that's the case, this would be pointless. We all know the USAF has it in the bag. The best as in um, best pilots, crews, history, etc. So the VVS would stand a chance.

Ok. Should we just get Viggen to brief us on his country's air force before we all pounce on him, or should we wait for more people?

[Gripen]

Ergh fine

I willingly pledge my services to this cause.

blah

[alyster]

If you include the history I'm not sure Russian Air Force would stand a chance. I mean it would if you'd only count in Russian Air Force [Russian Empire and Russian Fed] not Soviet Air Force. I mean soviet air force should still be ashamed how poorly they did against nazis in ww2.

If you mean the pilots, planes and history, then I'd go with Luftwaffe. Though its best service was under the most horrible regime it's still the most outstanding. In WW1 their Fokkers outclassed the allied "Fokke Fodders" , they had the highest scoring ace, not to mention they had to fight against Russian, British and French empires at the same time with Austria as their ally. Not to mention the WW2 where they had supirior tactics and pilot training. All TOP-100 killers in the world are Germans. And today armed with the Typhoons they are still among the best. I just don't understand why they kept the F-4s on so long and sold the MiGs.

[Viggen]

Im working on it, hopefully i will post it during this late evening. Have to be off to do other stuff, or i would surly have had it finished by now. 

[Sergei]

alyster, what you have in view of??? Rout of Air forces of Workers and Peasants Red Army within the Second World war? Ridiculously. Germans bravely, I repeat, bravely battled, but neither Erikh Hartman, nor Gerkhard Barhorn, Gyunter Rall to the, in total, by the brought down 600 planes couldn't affect a course of war. It's impossible to forget, that Germans often overestimated quantity of the brought down planes of the opponent. For example, Hartman has brought down not 352, and about 270 planes of the opponent. The same and with the others. And many Soviet pilots simply didn't wish to protect communistic authority. Therefore also results such pitiable.

As to Air Forces of the Soviet Army here, excuse for expression, even Americans sucked. Probably, all have forgotten, as tens times Soviet, and now and the Russian strategic bombers flew by above decks of the American aircraft carriers. In most cases proyears of bombers above a deck of an aircraft carrier it was accompanied by a panic among American техников and the attendants which ran up as a rat with the ship. My father was the commander of crew of bomber Тu-95MS, when his plane has flown by above aircraft carrier Avraam Lincoln. At me photos of the American aircraft carrier made by photogun Tu-95MS till now are stored. If someone is interesting, I can scan and lay out on a forum.

I consider, that by 2020 VVS of Russian Federation will be one of the best Air Forces in the world. It's my opinion.

[alyster]

Sergei I mean that in the begining of The Great Patriotic war Luftwaffe had about 2000-3000 planes in sevice, Soviet Air Force had 12 000 - 15 000 planes[¹]. Stalin had in reserves about 150 000 pilots[²]. Any air force which wanted to consider itself good should have smashed the Germans with such numbers in matter of days.   Instead of that Luftwaffe kept on battling and quite succesfully considering all they had to put up with from RAF and USAAF. All of Hartmann's kills were made after year 1942. However soviets sent unescorted bombers to attack German positions and they were quite easily taken down.[¹] . In fact thing which slowed down the Luftwaffe were captured soviet air fields. Their infrastructure was so poor that Germans had to start fixing them before they could properly use them.  [³].

Soviet pilots were poorly trained. The Great purges had eliminated the pilots(or atlist made rest of them shut up) who had been to Spanish civil war. Germans learned alot from Spain. Soviet I-16 was too old at the begining of the war. The air force had to go thru the trouble of replacing it. The air fields were overcrowded, too many planes were on them and their infrastructure was below any standart. 5 times smaller Luftwaffe's major problem wasn't the red air force, but covering all of the long long front from White Sea to Black sea.

So the air force which should have crushed the Germans ran with its tail between its legs. 13 pilots scored above 200 points against the soviets. Each and everyone killed alone enough planes to smash a small air force. (Estonian air force from 1918-1940 had intotal 166 planes)

[1] - "Luftwaffe fighter aces. ..." Mike Spick
[2] - "M-Day" Viktor Suvorov
[3] - "Die Ersten und die Letzten" Adolf Galland

[Viggen]

Ok, here we go! 

It all started back in 1926. That is when the Swedish air force was founded. Before that it was a part of the army and they conducted mostly recon flights. Back then SWAF had 18 operative aircraft. Twelve J7 Bristol Bulldogs and the rest was J6 Jaktfalken. Because of the tensions in Europe in 1937, SAAB (Svenska Aeroplan AB) was founded so Sweden would be able to construct their own aircraft. Saab 17 was the first complete Swedish manufactured aircraft to leave the plant in Linkoping the same year. But Sweden still continued to buy aircraft from Great britain, USA, Germany and Italy. 1939 SWAF had aprox 180 aircraft , from 1945 this had increased to 600 operative aircraft.

From 1945-46, Sweden bought American P51 Mustangs and the British Vampire jets. But it was time for a change, we would no longer have an air force with outdated aircraft. So during the 50´s the principle of roadbases started to take on. During this time SAAB produced three different types of aircraft for SWAF. First out was J29 Tunnan (also known as “the flying barrel”). Second was A32 Lansen (Spear). The third aircraft is well known, J35 Draken. This proves how fast the technologi and development rushed forward within the aviation community worldwide. During the mid 60´s another project was under development, project 37.

The first batch of Saab 37 Viggen was delivered to SWAF 1971. 100 aircraft where ordered at first, it ended with a total sum of 330 Viggens delivered. 1977 a decision was made that it was time to develop another new aircraft for SWAF, know now as JAS 39 Gripen.

So has SWAF ever been involved in war or real aircombat. The answer is yes. But this was for a peacekeeping purpouse. From 1961-64 under UN flag SWAF flew sorties over Congo during the Congo-crysis. They where equipped with J29´s and and shoot down several aircraft.

Training of Swedish pilots have always been of the highest quality, among the best in the world.
I cant come up with something more to write at the moment... 

[Gripen]

My go

RAAF became independent in 1921 (making it one of the oldest independant airforces in the world)

Involved in World War 2 (Europe, North Africa, Pacific), Korea, Vietnam, Gulf 1, Timor, Gulf 2


Served in World War 1, but was still called the Australian Flying Corps, (still part of the army, i think??)

Air Strength and Future

BAE Systems Hawk - 33
BeechCraft Super King Air - 8
Boeing 707 (tanker/transport) - 2
Boeing 737 - 2
Boeing C-17 Globemaster III - 2
Bombadier Challenger 600 - 3
de Havilland Canada DHC-4 Caribou - 10
General Dynamics F-111 Aardvark- 21
Lockheed C-130 Hercules  - 20
Lockheed P-3 Orion - 21
McDonell Douglas F-18 - 71
Pilatus PC-9 - 65

Up to 100 Lockheed Martin F-35A Lightning II (CTOL variant) — are scheduled to be delivered from 2013.
24 Boeing F/A-18F Super Hornets. On March 6, 2007, Defence Minister Brendon Nelson announced that the Australian Government had purchased 24 F/A-18F aircraft to reduce the risk of a gap in strike capability, between the retirement of the F-111 in 2010 and delivery of the F-35A.
Six Boeing Project Wedgetail AEW&C aircraft, including another single aircraft optioned.
Five Airbus KC-30B Multi-Role Tanker Transports — to replace the dated Boeing 707s in aerial refueling and strategic transport roles.
Four Boeing C-17 Globemaster IIIs have been ordered to improve the RAAF's continental and strategic airlift capabilities. The first aircraft was delivered in late 2006 with the fourth aircraft being delivered in February 2008.
Maritime patrol aircraft to replace AP-3C Orions. The RAAF has chosen Boeing's P-8 Poseidon.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAAF)

The day World War II ended the RAAF had a total of 173,622 men and women working in 570 Units around the globe, maintaining 5,620 flying aircraft. The list of aircraft was divided equally into front-line and support machines which included 249 Liberators, 280 Mosquitoes, 378 Mustangs, 109 Dakotas, 109 Catalinas, 328 Beaufighters, 370 Kittyhawks and 367 Spitfires – war had transformed the RAAF into an immensely powerful force.

From June 1950, during the period of the Berlin Airlift, the Communist Party of Malaya commenced terrorist activities in the region. The RAAF contributed No 1 Squadron and its Lincoln bombers and No 38 Squadron Dakotas to the anti-guerilla operations (RAF Operation ‘Firedog’). They operated from Changi and Tengah, Singapore with a detachment at Kuala Lumpur, until 1958, moving supplies, passengers and cargo. The 1SQN Lincoln bombers dropped 85% of the total tonnage of bombs expended during Operation ‘Firedog’.

On 25 June 1950 North Korean troops also invaded South Korea. No 77 Squadron worked with the United Nations force to counter the invasion and commenced operations from Iwakuni on 2 July, flying mainly ground support missions, combat air patrols and escort missions. The Dakotas of No 30 Communications Unit (renamed No 36 Squadron in March 1953) also operated from Iwakuni during the Korean War, flying freight to Korea and evacuating wounded soldiers to hospitals in Japan.

Another aspect of the ‘Cold War’ was the RAAF deployment of No 78 Wing to Malta from July 1952 until February 1954. This time families, technical and administrative personnel from Nos. 75 and 76 fighter Squadrons, No.378 Base Squadron and No. 478 (Maintenance) Squadron also travelled to Malta. The Wing flew Vampire FB-9 aircraft leased from the RAF. They contributed to the air defence of the Middle East, in NATO exercises, regular air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons practices, as well as participating in the coronation of Queen Elizabeth II and the subsequent NATO Exercise ‘Coronet’ staged in Germany - an exercise with over 2,000 aircraft and 40,000 personnel.

(http://www.raaf.gov.au/history/airforce_history/postwar46.htm)

The invasion of Kuwait by Iraq on 2 August 1990 paved the way for the formation of a multinational force comprising 40,000 troops from thirty countries to enforce United Nations Security Council resolutions and drive back Iraqi forces. Over 1800 ADF personnel were deployed in the Gulf War from August 1990 to September 1991. The force comprised units from the Australian Navy, Army and Air Force. Operations were named Desert Shield, Desert Storm and Desert Farewell. No deaths occurred among Australian personnel although Coalition forces lost 166 personnel.

In addition, Army and Air Force provided personnel to Operation Habitat, the delivery of humanitarian aid to Kurds living in the UN-declared exclusion zone in northern Iraq. Air Force support also included the evacuation of Australian nationals. Boeing 707 tanker aircraft from No. 33 Squadron also flew to the Gulf during March–May 1998 to support Allied air operations in the region

The invasion of Kuwait by Iraq on 2 August 1990 paved the way for the formation of a multinational force comprising 40,000 troops from thirty countries to enforce United Nations Security Council resolutions and drive back Iraqi forces. Over 1800 ADF personnel were deployed in the Gulf War from August 1990 to September 1991. The force comprised units from the Australian Navy, Army and Air Force. Operations were named Desert Shield, Desert Storm and Desert Farewell. No deaths occurred among Australian personnel although Coalition forces lost 166 personnel.

In addition, Army and Air Force provided personnel to Operation Habitat, the delivery of humanitarian aid to Kurds living in the UN-declared exclusion zone in northern Iraq. Air Force support also included the evacuation of Australian nationals. Boeing 707 tanker aircraft from No. 33 Squadron also flew to the Gulf during March–May 1998 to support Allied air operations in the region

(http://www.raaf.gov.au/history/airforce_history/gulfwar.htm)

On 25 October 2000 the UN Mission in Support of East Timor (UNMISET) was established by UN resolution 1272/99 and was implemented on East Timor's Independence Day, 20 May 2002. Currently Australia provides about 25% of the Peace Keeping Force in East Timor, conducting a broad range of functions and tasks, ensuring stability during the establishment of independence and the rebuilding of the nation.

In October 2001, Prime Minister John Howard announced that the Australian Defence Force (ADF) would contribute to coalition operations against terrorism in Afghanistan. Known as Operation Slipper, Australia’s original contribution included two B707 air-to-air refuelling aircraft and support personnel based at Manas, Kyrgyzstan to refuel coalition aircraft. A Detachment of F/A-18 Hornets was based at Diego Garcia, providing support to the Coalition. Australia filled the leadership position of Operations Group Commander at Manas during the air-to-air refuelling deployment, with RAAF C-130 transport aircraft also transporting ADF personnel and equipment to/from and within the area of operations. Currently our contribution includes the Australian National Headquarters - Middle East Area of Operations, located in the Middle East, providing command and control for deployed Australian forces, and two RAAF AP-3C Orion maritime aircraft on patrol missions and in support of aircraft carrier operations and maritime interdiction.

March 2003 saw the Prime Minister announce that the Government had committed ADF elements in the Middle East to the coalition of military forces prepared to enforce Iraq's compliance with its international obligations to disarm. Australia's contribution to the coalition, known as Operation Falconer, has to date involved about 2000 ADF personnel including approximately 650 airmen, airwomen and support crews deployed with 14 RAAF F/A-18 Hornet fighter aircraft, 3 RAAF C-130 Hercules transport aircraft, 2 P-3C Orion maritime patrol aircraft, and an Air Forward Command Element responsible for coordinating air operations with coalition partners and providing national control of RAAF assets.

(http://www.raaf.gov.au/history/airforce_history/2000.htm)