MILAVIA Forum

Military Aviation => Air Forces => Topic started by: Berkut on June 22, 2005, 03:47:16 AM

Title: Which country has the best air defence.
Post by: Berkut on June 22, 2005, 03:47:16 AM
I think it's Germany,it has the most professional air force and not that much air space.
Title: Re: Which country has the best air defence.
Post by: RecceJet on June 24, 2005, 04:49:21 AM
The US would deem it necessary to win any and every conflict for the purpose of popular support; it has been proven how strong public opinion can be in a war effort. This compared  to Israel's need to simply survive, let alone hold any ground in world opinion.

Japan has no real threat in the region. The only thing North Korea could realisticly throw at Japan is some ballistic missiles. Japan has Kongo class Aegis warships that can take care of that threat.

Russia is in no immediate threat of being overrun by Chechen rebels, though being relatively sparsely populated I guess they could be paranoid about the Chinese eyeing the resources in Russia's east.

Ok, this is probably not the best reason (and no offence intended to any German patrons), but I voted for Israel out of the given options because Germany has already lost two wars in the last 100 years ;)

Considering that Israel is a fraction of Germany's landmass, and having - in effect - no strategic depth, they've done pretty damn good to hold off the Arabs over half a dozen wars. Also keeping in mind that "air defence" covers not only the air force of a country, but also early warning and surface-to-air missile systems, Israel is at the leading edge of research and technological advances in defensive measures. Any copy of Janes Defense Weekly will run a couple of articles about Israel's latest technological applications in any variety of fields:
The list of advances is almost limitless, and a good reason is for the very fact that Israel cannot afford to lose a single battle. Germany has no immediate hostile neighbours, therefore I would argue that Israel has the best air defence - out of necessity.
Title: Re: Which country has the best air defence.
Post by: Berkut on June 24, 2005, 06:01:19 AM
Yes Germans did lost two wars, but look how much damage they did to hole Europe, Russia and U.S troops.It fought with two  biggest and most powerfull countries, comparing  it is as big as Taxes. And now , look  at that training of NATO forces in Italy ; dogfights in witch took part Italian f-16 against German primitive model of mig-29 A , and guess who won? - German mig. :o
Title: Re: Which country has the best air defence.
Post by: Webmaster on June 24, 2005, 01:58:22 PM
Come on, Germany lacks in air defense because of Eurofighter delays and cutbacks. Those MiGs you love so much have been retired, and they didn't fly that many anyway. No the majority of the air defense is composed of F-4F Phantoms, and although their AIM-120 AMRAAM capability makes them a good interceptor, they are truly not a good match. The Tornados are not really for air defense, but if they would have to face an attack, the best they can do are the AIM-9Ls. Eurofighter is slowly entering service, so it might be a pretty good service, but compared to the US, UK, Russia and Israel, I wouldn't choose them.  The UK has more Eurofighters on order, E-3 AWACS aircraft, the F.3 is upgraded with AMRAAM and ASRAAM. And the Tornado GR.4 carries ASRAAM as well. And don't forget the stationed US F-15s in the country. Also it has the north sea as buffer.
German defenses have been crippled by budget cuts since the cold war, and in the cold war, Germany was really just a buffer for the west, filled with offensive aircraft from UK and US to attack incoming tank formation, it would be the frontline. Main problem is the lack of AWACS.

I've seen some nice charts of the Russian air defenses around Moscow, pretty amazing.

Italian F-16s, what do you expect, it is the first time in many years they have been operating such an agile aircraft. They have operating it for what, 2 years now?

If we go back to WWII, you might want to prefer UK air defense, which manage to hold off the attackers. German air defense although pretty good equipped with radar, nightfighters, strong day fighters and not to forget the 88mm and FLAK weapons, the allied bombers managed to bomb all major German city including Berlin in the east of the country. The damage they did to Russia/Europe has nothing to do with air defense, but with offensive blitz actions (the Luftwaffe was never that successfull and losses were high).

Israel is pretty good, but they needed PATRIOTs on several occasions from allies to protect against SCUDs. The Arrow should be filling that gap now.
Title: Re: Which country has the best air defence.
Post by: RecceJet on June 24, 2005, 02:54:16 PM
Israel is pretty good, but they needed PATRIOTs on several occasions from allies to protect against SCUDs. The Arrow should be filling that gap now.

True, the US deployed several MIM-104 Patriot batteries to Israel during the early 90s, but this only so that the US could convince Israel not to take the option of the pre-emptive strike. The Sayaret Matkal (Israeli special forces) was rumoured to have been in Iraq at the time, ready to lase Saddam's SS-1B Scuds, and Israeli pilots were waiting in their jets with engines idling throught the conflict. In my personal opinion I'd say that if the US didn't hold Israel on a tight leash (so that the US could gain the support of Arabs in the Coalition Forces), Israel would have gone in and given Saddam a bloody nose, on a much larger scale than the Osirak reactor attack of 1981.
Title: Re: Which country has the best air defence.
Post by: Berkut on June 25, 2005, 12:32:19 AM
I was talking about German professionalism not their equipment. Talking about equipment, I think Russian air defence force is the best,they got 300 mig-31s and 200 su-27s that are capable of interception incoming  missiles and any aircraft including stealth planes. They also have in service about 2000 missles including s-400.  :-*
Title: Re: Which country has the best air defence.
Post by: Webmaster on June 25, 2005, 01:48:43 AM
True, keeping Israel out of the conflict was a good move, but Saddam wasn't stupid either firing SCUDs to show their capability, but not loading them with nasty warloads (yet). Also the Netherlands and Germany deployed Patriots in 1991, but in 2003 the Netherlands deployed Patriots to Turkey instead.

True, and those S-300 and S-400 systems are not to be underestimated, probably the best ones around.
Title: Re: Which country has the best air defence.
Post by: elias_b on June 26, 2005, 11:33:17 AM
But the S-400 only enters service in very small numbers yet. And don't forget the future US air defence. For ballistic missiles and conventional aircraft, they will deploy the THAAD, and for the medium range, they are deploying a surface-to-air Amraam.
Title: Re: Which country has the best air defence.
Post by: Webmaster on June 26, 2005, 03:20:38 PM
The Airborne Laser is another nice project of the U.S.

Both have some years of development remaining though.

With PAC-III fully operational and matured, THAADs in place, ABL, F/A-22 in service, all F-15s upgraded, the US will have superb air defence. But what about QRA? I bet Israel can get more aircraft in the air simultaneously in the same area quicker  than the others.
Title: Re: Which country has the best air defence.
Post by: Goose on June 29, 2005, 01:27:39 AM
I voted Isreal because of their history, they've defended their country on numerous occassions against much superior forces, numerically superior anyway. The level of professionalism is the highest I think out of all the countries in the poll. The US still has in fightin on a grand scale within the millitary for various reasons. In Isreal it is a collective effort to survive! They fly top of the line equipment and are alway developing equipment to stay leaps ahead of any potential adversary. Their closest contender in the region I think is Saudi Arabia. I personaly am very glad to see the Isrealis devlop the Arrow. Sure they require alot of US support and can't fight a protracted war but we have to put the poll in to context of what the threat is. Additionally the Isrealis would employ tactics to ensure that they don't have to fight a long war. The best deffence is a strong offence.

I really don't think Germany measures up, old equipment and history. Russia doesn't have the money to fully develop their potential for a world class air defence system. For one their pilots do not fly enough.
Title: Re: Which country has the best air defence.
Post by: Viggen on June 29, 2005, 08:19:08 AM
I voted for US...Why?

Well, since 9/11 USAF have been on high alert. You cant even fart in US-airspace without asking for permission first, while two F16´s sneaking up behind you.  :)
Title: Re: Which country has the best air defence.
Post by: Berkut on June 30, 2005, 12:33:17 AM
Future U.S. air defence, THAAD,AMRAAM, what  makes it better ???than Russian, s-300, s-400, PANTSYR S1.
Title: Re: Which country has the best air defence.
Post by: Air Marshal on October 14, 2005, 05:08:39 PM
From my observation United States & Sweeden has the Best Air Defence.
Title: Re: Which country has the best air defence.
Post by: aircop38 on June 27, 2006, 12:12:08 PM
The US would deem it necessary to win any and every conflict for the purpose of popular support; it has been proven how strong public opinion can be in a war effort. This compared  to Israel's need to simply survive, let alone hold any ground in world opinion..

Israel is at the knifes' edge all the time, but could not stand a massed coordinated attack by its combined neighbors( which due to Israels fighting skills , and distrust by its neighbors of one another, will probably never happen).Israel fights like the U.S. only faster- they gain superiority in the air right away,then beat their enemies faces bloody,'til the aggressors quit-Israel never fights  with intents of invading ,but rather an aggressive/ proactive defense.given the fact that a regional enemy could drive into Televiv in a few hours or fly over Israeli airspace in a matter of minutes, you'd have to be set like a loaded gun with the hammer back.but because they are so small, they can be overwhelmed-Thank God it has never happened
Title: Re: Which country has the best air defence.
Post by: aircop38 on June 27, 2006, 01:10:48 PM
funny ,but i recently read a discussion that bragged about how the U.S. air force was "BEATEN" by India in a joint exercise; i later read the the reason the US forces were "Defeated" was beacuse they were playing the role of a defender against an attacking force that was superior in #s and using a tactics not trained for-guess the U.S. got caught with their pants down ,and if this subject has already been discussed ,I'm sorry. What was funnier was that the writer of the article was an indian defense analyst who proclaimed that the exercise was a good training op, but not realistic.it seems that the U.S. prefers "air dominance" over attrition in the air,meaning ,it uses its tactical edges to destroy the enemy(like stealth attacks on radar and AAA systems,mass bombing with the B-52s ,then mop ups with ground attack acft like the f-16,F/A-18, and CAP with the F-15) If the gulf conflicts are any measure of what a future shooting war will be, there really won't be much time for long drawn out air battles, as either the conflict will be a brief violent flash,then a stand off and peace is declared ,or a total domination,with minimal  combat loss and death.The best can only be related to in terms of training,equipment and power projection,as well as a countries ability to maintain that force.but considering the prohibitive cost of waging combat( so much easier to threaten and posture,then later peacefully negotiate)why would any country wnat to find out whose the "best"? ,especially when a$500,000 unmanned missile can destroy a $20-30 million acft and the pilot(s) inside who probably represent another 2 million in training and equipping costs...................
Title: Re: Which country has the best air defence.
Post by: Webmaster on June 29, 2006, 03:00:33 AM
Indeed, already discussed in other topics. I always doubted these first "BEATEN" articles/claims. The USAF surely was surpised and impressed. But the exercise has little meaning to compare the two forces (or aircraft), especially if what you say about the exercise is true. Another thing I know is that the F-15s were not relying on AWACS as of course they would have done when in a real battle. And I think it was only WVR...not BVR, the main fighting arena for the US. The Su-30s involved were not even of the latest MKI standard, so the capability gap between the two would not be that different to determine the outcome. So it's either tactics and/or the above mentioned reasons.
Title: Re: Which country has the best air defence.
Post by: Cobra2 on September 10, 2006, 06:58:42 PM
I think its the U.S. because we give our pilots good training and our fighter and bombers are very good.

like the B-2, F/A-22, new F-18Es and Fs, F-15Es, F-117 etc.

Russia has good fighter planes and bombers also....like the Su-37, Tu-160, Su-27, MiG-29, and others.
But i heard that Russia doesn't have very much fuel for there airforce...can someone correct me if im wrong...however I did hear it on the History Channel...but it may have meant in previus years.



Title: Re: Which country has the best air defence.
Post by: Cobra2 on September 10, 2006, 07:00:47 PM
And Isreal has a very good airforce aswell....and when I said that we give our pilots good training i meant not only us but other countries aswell..but including the U.S.
Title: Re: Which country has the best air defence.
Post by: Webmaster on September 10, 2006, 07:45:13 PM
Well with 'no fuel' they probably mean 'no money'... each flight hour costs not only fuel, but also all the other costs. My impression is that the cuts are almost complete, and Russia can now streamline the organisation and start upgrading aircraft. However their pilots are still not flying and training as much as their US and European counterparts. I think there are only some exceptions, I think the Tu-160 bomber unit was doing quite well, because they are the main long range weapon and deterrent, and therefore get the neccessary funding. But that's not air defence... I think that was way better in the days of the PVO, even though the systems that can be deployed are more advanced now.

Back on the US... if you consider that air defense should be integral network of defenses, and you consider the results of the investigation of the air traffic control and NORAD on 9/11, it tells me two things. First that the air defense of the USA was probably weaker than we expected, because of the old equipment and communication systems. Secondly, that it should be the best, or one of the best, air defense system in the world, once all measures taken to prevent a similar chaos should such an event repeat itself. STARWARS project is very nice, but without the proper communications doesn't make a good air defense.