MILAVIA Forum

Military Aviation => Air Power => Topic started by: Webmaster on March 08, 2011, 08:17:38 PM

Title: Libya
Post by: Webmaster on March 08, 2011, 08:17:38 PM
Although I sometimes feel its somewhat inappropriate to discuss a country's military force when it's being used against its own people, I decided to open a topic on Libya anyway. I'm sure you all have been watching the news and know what's going on. But let's talk about military air power. First off, two Mirage F1s fled to Malta. Rebels are asking for the air force to be dealt with, so they can liberate the country on the ground. Voices in favor of a UN sanctioned no-fly zone.

So other than the ex-RNLN Lynx they've most recently have obtained (*sigh*), what do they have. Most aircraft remaining today were delivered in 1970s-1980s. Sanctions started in 1988, the UN embargo started in 1992, lasting to 2003, had a drastic effect on the serviceable of the fleet.

- Mirage F1ED/BD, a handful had been overhauled and redelivered by 2009. In total, 12 were expected to return to service of the 38 AD/BD/ED once delivered, probably only the BD and ED variants. The remainder were reportedly in such a bad condition that they were scrapped.
- Su-24MK, in 1989, six Su-24MK Fencers were delivered, five remained which were overhauled, but serviability is poor due to lack of maintenance and parts.
- Su-22M3/UM3, once 60 delivered, remainder unknown but split between Tobruk and Sirte/Ghurdabiyah.
- MiG-23MF, reportedly only six remained in service by 2009.
- MiG-21bis/UM, unknown how many remain, but at least a few UM two-seaters were overhauled and returned to service.
- MiG-23MLD/UB, eight had been overhauled by 2009, but more were expected to follow.
- Galeb G-2, 50 were delivered in 1975, and "several" were overhauled and did get support afterwards from Serbia. Although they were just used for training by the LAF academy, they could be armed and still have their cannons. Based at Misrata, between Tripoli and Sirte.
- L-39ZO, 24 believed to have been overhauled. Again, a trainer, but used extensively in the war with Chad to fly CAS. Most are probably at Sebha/Zawia, the Metiga ones seemed (2009) in storage.
- SF260, at least 12 were overhauled, I mention this basic trainer because they can also be deployed in the light ground attack / CAS role, and Libya has had plenty of experience in the war with Chad using it for that purpose. However, stationed at Sebha/Zawia, they'd have to deploy north to take part in the fight for Tripoli, which I doubt they'll try.
- Mi-35/Mi-17, stationed in Sirte which is a pro-Gaddafi town anyway, could cause major hurt if the rebels try to take it. But I haven't seen any proof of them. There were quite some airworthy Hips at Metiga.

Details are sketchy, if you have more info, I appreciate it.

Now, the east of the country is pretty much under control of the rebels. So I would say that probably means the Benghazi based MiG-23s and Tobruk based Mirage F1 and Su-22M3 can not be called upon. I assume the same applies to Al Bumbah.

Gaddafi's hometown of Sirte is where the RNLN Lynx was seized and crew captured. Close to this city is Ghurdabiyah, this where the other Su-22M3s and the Su-24s are based.

Ajdabiya: The rebel-held port was bombed last week by a Libyan warplane (BBC). I think I saw the footage and I believe that was a Su-24. It missed.

Ras Lanuf was also targeted by aircraft, footage did not show the aircraft, the blast looked like a smaller diameter bomb compared to the one in Ajdabiya. But the noise definately indicated it was a jet. Apparently there were several strikes a day.

Closer to Tripoli, Zawiyah appears to be where the bloodiest battles took place thus far with some 50 tanks being reported (footage showed at least 8 ). The same film saw a long convoy of black pickup trucks, I wonder what that was about. However, no air strikes reported other than some helicopters observing.

Misrata has been reported to be in rebel hands, but surrounded by government forces. So I'm not sure if the airbase is also in rebel hands.

The MiG-23s are air defense fighters, they are pretty much useless. The couple dozen SF-260/L-39 will probably not be used.

It seems to me that a no-fly zone is only necessary over the northwestern part of the country to prevent jets taking off from Sirte (in particular the squadron of Su-22s and five Su-24s and if possible Mi-35) and maybe Mertiga if planes have moved there.

Tu-22 have been out of service since the Soviets left in 1992. I'd be surprised if anyone is left that could get them started, let alone take-off without crashing. MiG-25 long gone too and Mirage Vs were sold to Pakistan (mostly for their spare parts)

Good thing they've been lagging on their procurement as they were eyeing Rafales, Su-35, Su-30, Yak-130s.

I'm no big fan of the no-fly-zone idea though if they really want to "take out all Libyan air defenses first" to keep just the handful of Su-22/24 under control. A no-fly zone doesn't stop those tanks shooting up urban areas anyway, and there will be probably be more of that. Mi-35 could be a big problem, no-fly zone or not, but I wonder how far the overhauls were along.
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Viggen on March 09, 2011, 11:45:45 AM
Remember the incident back in 1989? F14 vs MIG-23!  ;D

Libya's air force is only a threat against its own civilians. Their outdated air force would not stand a chance against todays modern fighters that are in use. It would be another Desert storm scenario. A few aircraft would try to fight, but the majority would probably be flown to nearby countries, were the pilots would plead for asylum.

Point is that one could use old WWII warbirds if you just want to terrorize/slaughter you own unarmed civilian citizens.
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Webmaster on March 09, 2011, 05:06:52 PM
So every news channel got the same footage from Ras Lanuf, couple of airstrikes by Su-22, filmed from different angles. However I wonder what they are actually doing, it seems the pilots are not making a serious effort. They fly at medium attitude and miss road junctions by hundreds of metres if not more. Sure, their bombing skills may be lacking, but I haven't seen any strafing... a road full of pickups, and the pilot drops one bomb in the desert?

Also I noticed the term "bombardment" is used for the Gaddafi son's tank brigade shelling cities, some news agencies confuse the term with the air strikes.

In an interview by Al Jazeera with a rebel, he said they spotted Mirages and helicopters which went away when they opened fire.

I'm starting to think the air force is intentionally underperforming.

That said, this armour brigade which now is reported to have taken back Zawiyah by brutal force is the biggest concern. And Misrata was reportedly taken back with tanks in the city center, but they got some anti-tank surprise there. Rebel forces retreated from Bin Jawad to regroup and resupply (they said). Bin Jawad reportedly was taken back with support of gunships and fighters. This is so close to Sirte, home of the Sukhois and Hinds.

A partial no-fly zone might be sufficient.

But again, how is a no-fly zone going to prevent the tank brigade from going from city to city...

If only something could be done to counter the propaganda machine instead... Soldiers are told they are fighting Bin Laden and brainwashed youth. Reports of this emerged even before Gaddafi started saying this on TV. Other soldiers were just plainly forced into battle, threatened to be shot if they refused.

With regards to the rebels, still seems highly disorganized, apart from top command. Earlier reports from Benghazi showed some officers from the military leading them on the ground. However, they no longer seemed to be around? However I did notice some more advanced weaponry being used. 20 artillerie shells were answered by 40 Katyusha rockets according to one report. Footage showed a BM-12/Type-63/Taka launcher I think, 107mm, 5mile range, 1.3kg warhead... a far cry from what normally is associated with Katyusha today. [Edit: footage of March 9 near Bin Jawad... rebels firing I think 122mm Katyusha rockets, truck mounted, looks like BM-21... max range 20 up to 40km]
Also anti-air missiles were reportedly used by the rebels, interesting, they could have attained SA-7 like MANPADs, although I haven't seen them. In one film, I noticed a rebel pointing either a recoilles rifle or AT weapon (larger than your typical RPG)to the air... uhm...
Russia/China blocking UN resolution for a no-fly zone. USS Eisenhouwer on its way.

Quote from: Viggen
Point is that one could use old WWII warbirds if you just want to terrorize/slaughter you own unarmed civilian citizens.

Indeed, but my point is that's not what is happening. The only effect the airstrikes seem to be having is fear and delay advance. And it seems to be working. So as it isn't used to slaughter, and the west presses on with a no-fly zone, it's not preventing warcrimes, it's aiding the rebels. If you're going to do that, you might as well just arm them and prevent the issues of a (non-UN authorized) no-fly zone. I think if one wants to support the rebellion, supplying the rebels with SA-7 MANPADs would be a good idea to keep the air force even further away. They are the most proliferated MANPADs anyway, it's not like making the Stinger-mistake again.

Gaddafi needs to go, but this is an internal affair. If the Arab nations are so supportive of an (air) intervention, let them do it, they got F-16s too. I don't think NATO should step in, it's ridiculous to get into this when you don't react at all to conflicts elsewhere.

Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Webmaster on March 09, 2011, 05:51:32 PM
But that's political, back on the air/AD power.

Saw a picture of I think SA-7 being fired, two weeks old, Benghazi. Apparently some Hinds were at Benina Feb 20-23, one shot down, two or more destroyed on the ground as well as a couple of Hip losses and one Su-22M3 reportedly carrying 4x FAB-500 crashing. Also a Mi-14 was captured. I started watching it too late to get all. The ground-attack version of the MiG-23, the -23BN, were sitting on the apron at al-Abrak AB, all rusty and sandy and were "secured" earlier as well.

Yes, I remember the F-14/MiG-23. They do have the MLD version now, which was much better, but still useless today. I don't know how hard they've been working in the Ukraine 2009-2010, but I wouldn't expect anything past a dozen to be operational.

Tom Cooper at ACIG.org came up with a list of overhauled aircraft:
Quote from: ACIG
- up to 12 Mirage F.1, though probably less (French sources cite only four, two of which have already been flown out)
- between 10 and 18 Su-22M-3Ks and Su-22UM-3Ks
- 16 MiG-23
- 12-20 MiG-21
- 20 G-2A
- 8 J-21
- 24 L-39
- 12 SF.260WL
- 6 An-26
- 5 An-72
- plenty of helicopters (including up to 20 Mi-24s and at least 20 Mi-8s)

So some a bit higher than I said in my first post. But this was before losses.
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Viggen on March 09, 2011, 07:15:33 PM
Honestly i have not yet had the time to look deeper into this conflict. I do however agree with you that us westerners should stay out of this. Sure we can give them the political support they need, but like you said. Let them solve this with their own hardware.

Anyway. I saw that "you" listed up to 20 MI-24´s. Russians used them in the afghan-war and they were very successful. Im pretty sure that a good pilot and gunner will hit what they are aiming at. So yes, i do believe that the air force and some other units are intensionally missing targets.
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Webmaster on March 09, 2011, 07:59:56 PM
Already 4 down, at least. Plus I remember from LAVEX 07/09 reports that some had their guns removed and were just used for training (still could be armed with rocket pods). However, they are pretty vulnerable. That's why I mentioned the SA-7, also the rebel army brought a lot of ZU-23 AAA guns to the frontline. I'd imagine they are intentionally not deployed to attack rebel positions, but rather stop any attacks. In this respect, it's maybe a good thing the rebels are not using much military doctrine.

That said, most recent reports indicate army units from Benghazi sided with the rebels finally arrived in Ras Lanuf, to retake Bin Jawad, We could well see more intense use of Hinds here tomorrow to counter the disloyal army units.

And...of all equipment, I fear the Hinds will be flown by experienced mercenaries... but that's just my gqess.

Today, perhaps the first "aimed" or at least properly coordinated air strike took place at Sidra port. Destroying (according to one eye witness) much of Sidra port and the oil facilities rendering it totally useless. In other reports it seems the damage is more limited. Perhaps aimed at denying the rebels access to fuel and getting aid via that port. On the other hand, this may be an indication the regime does not expect to take back the east beyond Ras Lanuf any time soon...?
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Viggen on March 11, 2011, 12:26:53 PM
Read today that rebels only get 2 days of weapons training. Then they are "ready" for combat. Better then just handing them a weapon and sending them straight out into a combat zone, i guess.

Also, the French government wants to send forces over to help the rebels. Even without the help of an allied coalition or being UN-sanctioned. This means that the French Foreign Legion will be the boots on the ground. If it happens, lets hope they dont do the same mistake as they did in the Algerian war.

Do you think the French government will also give them air support if they actually send troops to help?
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Webmaster on March 11, 2011, 07:36:59 PM
No, not if it's only France. You need aircraft on station or at least nearby to provide air support. Malta probably doesn't allow warplanes without a UN resolution. So they would need to be able to use Italian base, unlikely if it's only France, not NATO. The CDG just finished a deployment to the Gulf of Aden and the Indian Ocean. I'm not sure it's capable of supporting Libyan ops. The best the French can do (speaking air power) is long strike missions against fixed targets, such as runway denial. If I'm correct, France is among the few countries which is still armed/trained for this. A risky mission with the air defense systems still online.

Foreign Legion can operate independently and may prioritize disabling the remaining Sukhois/Hinds on the ground. Wouldn't be the first time, and I wouldn't be surprised if they've got some teams already in Brega.

I haven't checked the range from possible bases in Chad to Libya, but I'd suspect it's too far to reach the bases in the North.

---

The crew of the Lynx helicopter were released and are now in Greece. They say the Netherlands did not have to deliver / make concessions on anything. Libya is keeping the helicopter. They think Libya let them free to improve the regime's image before international meeting on Libya. However, today, government forces launched an offensive against Ras Lanuf, with lots of artillery and some airstrikes and rebels started to retreat back to the East.

I don't have a lot of details today, because the news is dominated by the earthquake/tsunami near Japan.
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: shawn a on March 12, 2011, 02:27:56 AM
AW&ST's latest  issue has an article called  "F-22s may be used for Libyan SEAD" or some similar title (I just got the e-mail notification for the online edition, which I can't access on dial-up)
My question is: How? As far as I know, the -22 does not carry HARMs, even externally. So what the article says I don't know, but am eagerly awaiting the paper issue in my mailbox.
Could there be the possibility of EA on the system by the AESA radar of the -22?
By the way, I agree with the concept that the local countries should be the ones most concerned, and the ones that should take action. NATO should indeed stay out of it (lotsa luck!!)
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Webmaster on March 12, 2011, 05:15:42 AM
EA, no... doesn't have those capabilities. Besides using a stealth fighter for EA??? unless it's very good, it will reveal itself.

Using AWACS/Rivet Joint to locate emitters, radio-ing (or datalinking... is F-22 Link-16 yet?) it may do the job with JDAM fully utilizing its stealth. Or it could passively locate emitters itself. It has advanced RWR with some good range. Maybe the AESA can accurately find the range (some modes signals have low probability of intercept), or more probable passively with the RWR. I'd bet the RWR is already sophisticated enough to accurate detect range and bearing (just like a dedicated ELS on a Wild Weasel). Even Tornado F.3 RWR had already a good enough ELS to be used for SEAD. Fusing this information with GPS might be able to give an accurate location to feed to the JDAM. Stealth would protect the plane from detection at medium/high altitude, giving JDAM necessary range for somewhat stand-off attack... uhm, it's risky. How about JSOW?

But otherwise... fixed sites come to mind, with its stealth giving it enough room to come close enough for a JDAM (on a clear day). No ELS needed then.

But both of those... wouldn't that be DEAD, rather than SEAD?

Probably they do mean with HARM though... I also wonder how on the physical part of arming the AGM-88. Externally... does the LAU-118 launcher fit on the BRU-47 rack? Internally... HARM is eject type, not rail-launch, but does it fit? (large fins...)
That the -88 isn't on the list doesn't mean it's impossible.
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Viggen on March 18, 2011, 12:16:47 AM
Our questions might get answered "soon". UN has given NATO green light to use any means necessary to keep Libyas air force on the ground. This means that NATO can fly into Libya and are free to support and protect the civilian population. France said yesterday that they can be in the air within a few hours after the UN´s decision.
China, Russia and Germany did not vote at all.

Now we will find out if Kadaffi is bluffing or not. If  he´s not, he will soon wish he did.  :)
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Webmaster on March 18, 2011, 02:29:30 AM
Quote
China, Russia and Germany did not vote at all.
neither did India and Brazil

No surprises there.

Quote
Our questions might get answered "soon".

Well, "any means necessary " + "enforce ceasefire upon military" answers it... it could be more than just a no-fly-zone, making some the questions irrelevant. Also, it's no longer just about the air force.

But...

Libya already responded that it was open to cease fire, and Gaddafi is reported to have put the advance on hold.

Propaganda talk over?
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Viggen on March 18, 2011, 02:37:33 PM
You are right on there, propaganda talks are over. I believe Gadaffi  agreed to a cease fire because he needs a cool off period, so he can figure out his next move. Im convinced that the rebels or traitors as he call them, are still in very high danger from Gadaffis forces.

I would not be the least surprised if he will use "un-sanctioned" death squads to suppress the rebels will to fight, and to cleanse his country.


Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Webmaster on March 19, 2011, 12:56:29 PM
So while getting that no-fly zone into place, Gadaffi keeps on losing planes... one downed today:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/plane-shot-down-over-rebel-city-2246567.html?action=Gallery

Looks like MiG-23.
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Viggen on March 19, 2011, 02:54:38 PM
I just read in the news that the downed MIG-23 belonged to the rebels.

This lead me to think about the coalition-pilots. How are they going to tell the difference between Gadaffis and the rebels aircraft?

If a rebel aircraft is in the no fly zone, are they still going to shot it down?

Maybe this is why we have not yet seen any NATO jets in the air so far. Even though they said they were ready to strike within hours. Or did both sides bluff and now we get to see the results of it. NATO do more talks and plans while Gadaffis forces still clash with the rebels.

We keep hearing. "Its a matter of hours". "It might already be to late". But still no sign of any NATO aircraft, not even a demonstration of strength.

OK, we know that NATO needs to recce the area with satellite images and UAV´s to pin-point anti air  weapons, airfields and later ground forces. But whats taking so long if they are in such a hurry?

Also, rumors circulating that Sweden might send a couple of Gripens to help. I´ll try to dig more into this today and see if there is any credibility behind the words.
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Viggen on March 19, 2011, 04:22:35 PM
I´ll take a few words back from my previous post, as French jets are right now flying over Libya.

The rumor of Swedish Gripens, was actually  a statement made by the Swedish foreign minister Carl Bildt. So Sweden will participate in some sort of way, but not with ground forces. As of yet the Swedish goverment has not made a decision of how they will help, but sending Gripens to participate is not out of question.
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Webmaster on March 19, 2011, 08:38:35 PM
Indeed, apparently they shot their own plane down. I was already thinking... MiG-23, he must have run out of Sukhois?

This lead me to think about the coalition-pilots. How are they going to tell the difference between Gadaffis and the rebels aircraft?

Not, rebels won't fly anymore. In fact, this may have been a try at influencing the Paris talks, pretending to show in front of all cameras that the Libyan air force was flying.

If a rebel aircraft is in the no fly zone, are they still going to shot it down?

Depends on RoE really, if there is some way of making himself known and RoE is pretty strict, then maybe not. We won't know the RoE until much later... the no-fly zone is for any aircraft with libyan registration, so that would include captured aircraft... but maybe visual ID and radio check is part of RoE.

If he hasn't already been downed by his rebel friends.


First strikes are all about starting low on the scale to try to resolve it without escalation.

Intentionally not shock & awe. As the country basically collapses then beyond recovery.

However, I'm not sure how much sharing takes place, or with what speed up and down the chain. I'd imagine it's still today far from ideal. Also reports were up to a few days ago very unreliable, and to put it bluntly, there have to be a certain number of confirmed civilians killed before you interfere in another country's affairs. He bought himself some time with the cease fire.




Title: Re: Libya
Post by: SukhoiLover on March 19, 2011, 08:44:29 PM
The French just started to kickass over there, anybody knows if it was the 2000D or the Rafale?
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Webmaster on March 19, 2011, 08:45:48 PM
put my money on the Rafale... it needs sales...

Omg, our government is jumping up and down to get into this. Almost like little kids on the bench at the football match.

sorry if either one is an inappropriate statement, but that's how they behave in my opinion
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: SukhoiLover on March 19, 2011, 08:55:43 PM
put my money on the Rafale... it needs sales...

Omg, our government is jumping up and down to get into this. Almost like little kids on the bench at the football match.

sorry if either one is an inappropriate statement, but that's how they behave in my opinion

Yeah, i guess this is a nice oppurtunity for the French to show off the Rafale.
I just don´t know is how long it will take the UK to roll-in, don´t forget that they still have unfinished busness with Gadaffi for Lockerbe
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Webmaster on March 19, 2011, 09:45:22 PM
US tomahawk missiles vs defenses.
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: SukhoiLover on March 19, 2011, 09:51:29 PM
Take a look at this guys: http://geimint.blogspot.com/2011/03/libyan-nfz-sam-threat.html
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Viggen on March 19, 2011, 10:56:53 PM


Omg, our government is jumping up and down to get into this. Almost like little kids on the bench at the football match.

sorry if either one is an inappropriate statement, but that's how they behave in my opinion

Whatever floats your boat, Niels!  ;) Just joking. This is actually an opportunity for European aircraft manufacturers to  test their creations abilities under real combat situations. So im not surprised that Sweden wants in on this also. Gripen must prove itself during a real conflict or the sales will drop to zero when this is all over. It wont have a chance to compete against the Raphal and the Typhoon on the market. Sorry for steering of course here a bit...  8)

CNN was showing Raphal´s taking off, armed with 2 IR-missiles, 2 AMRAAM and 2 drop tanks. So these could not take part in attacking the ground targets. But like Niels said, i also bet on that its Raphals that are doing the job on the ground as well.

Have anyone heard any news on when the Typhoons are expected to start patrolling from their new bases?

112 Tomahaws have been fired so far from US ships.
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: SukhoiLover on March 19, 2011, 11:15:38 PM
Hey guys, i just saw a video on that MiG-23, seconds before we see 2 jets in formation flying the zone, and some minutes later we see France saying they have fighter on the area.

Now Viggen says the Rafale were flying in Anti-Air configuration, so, do you see where i´m trying to get? Do you think the Rafale might have shot down a rebel aircraft thinking it was a enemy? After IFF can´t tell the difference between a rebel and a Gaddaffi fighter.
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Viggen on March 19, 2011, 11:37:25 PM
Hey guys, i just saw a video on that MiG-23, seconds before we see 2 jets in formation flying the zone, and some minutes later we see France saying they have fighter on the area.

Now Viggen says the Rafale were flying in Anti-Air configuration, so, do you see where i´m trying to get? Do you think the Rafale might have shot down a rebel aircraft thinking it was a enemy? After IFF can´t tell the difference between a rebel and a Gaddaffi fighter.

I dont believe so. The MIG was downed early this morning. Before the last meeting and the press conference held by the French president.  However i dont think the MIG was shot down by a missile. Either AA-gun or a turbine failure. 
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: SukhoiLover on March 19, 2011, 11:41:56 PM
Hey guys, i just saw a video on that MiG-23, seconds before we see 2 jets in formation flying the zone, and some minutes later we see France saying they have fighter on the area.

Now Viggen says the Rafale were flying in Anti-Air configuration, so, do you see where i´m trying to get? Do you think the Rafale might have shot down a rebel aircraft thinking it was a enemy? After IFF can´t tell the difference between a rebel and a Gaddaffi fighter.

I dont believe so. The MIG was downed early this morning. Before the last meeting and the press conference held by the French president.  However i dont think the MIG was shot down by a missile. Either AA-gun or a turbine failure. 
It looks like that, but then remains the question, who did those two fighter belong to?
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Webmaster on March 20, 2011, 12:26:03 AM
Indeed, French planes came later. 

It looks like that, but then remains the question, who did those two fighter belong to?

Bit hard to answer, because we haven't seen the report you saw. Got a link?

But I'm reading that Libyan fighters were in the area, which may explain why it went up there.

Quote
Either AA-gun or a turbine failure.

Well, that's what I thought AA and then turbine failure, until I saw this (second) missile going for the plume of fire/smoke after the initial explosion in one video (http://nyhederne.tv2.dk/article.php/id-38302444:tv-2korrespondent-så-fly-blive-skudt-ned.html). But it wasn't like a AAM, maybe SA-7 fired too late?
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: SukhoiLover on March 20, 2011, 12:53:47 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-pv2Aiqzk0

0:24 Two fighter and in the opposite side the 23 going down
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Webmaster on March 20, 2011, 01:08:24 AM
Are you sure, I can't really tell... look at the movement of the first one... it's just birds?
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: SukhoiLover on March 20, 2011, 01:19:37 AM
Are you sure, I can't really tell... look at the movement of the first one... it's just birds?

Its possible, it does seem the 1st one makes a hard bank to the left, didn´t notice it at first:S

By the way, did the pilot survive?
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Viggen on March 20, 2011, 01:23:04 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-pv2Aiqzk0

0:24 Two fighter and in the opposite side the 23 going down

Those are birds. 100% sure of that. I had not seen this footage before. But after looking at the sequence a couple of times, i believe both are birds. The second smoke trail have to be from the missile. Runs diagonally from the aircraft,  barley visible.

This leads me to think that rebels shot their own plane down with one of those dual SA-7 mounts we seen placed on the back of trucks.
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Viggen on March 20, 2011, 01:25:42 AM
Are you sure, I can't really tell... look at the movement of the first one... it's just birds?

Its possible, it does seem the 1st one makes a hard bank to the left, didn´t notice it at first:S

By the way, did the pilot survive?

Yes, the pilot ejected safely. But it was not until the last moment, right before the jet hits the ground. (From what i´ve seen on other footage.)
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Viggen on March 20, 2011, 02:05:41 AM
Just confirmed that British Tornados are taking part tonight, firing Storm Shadow missiles.
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Webmaster on March 20, 2011, 03:15:38 AM
Hmm, he ejected, but safely? Some rebel said he was killed.

About the (second) missile, I don't have a clue, maybe something a bit newer than SA-7, as I expected to see more smoke. But it does appear to come from below.

Looked at some more footage, at wider angle even, but about same direction, nothing else visible except the MiG-23. Also just the sound of one jet engine, then silence, then boom. Nothing more.

Anyways, first package 4x Rafale Air and 2x Recce. Second package, the one of the bombing, 2x M2000D with possibly GBU-12, 2x M2000-5 Air, 2x Rafale with AASM. So it's still not certain which dropped the first bombs here afaik.

Spanish Hornets, Canadian Hornets, Danish F-16s, Italian Tornado (I believe IDS, but ECR (SEAD) are ready to deploy) on request, UK Tornado GR.4, USAFE F-15E arrived. Possibly latter two types went straight in with weapons.

Plus at least 2x E-3, 7x KC-135, 1x EC-130, 1x CP-3, 1x Nimrod R.1 (set for early retirement), 1x Sentinel R.1 (set for cancellation) over Med. Some UK tankers as well and all the transports for the deployments.

Italian carrier with AV-8B underway (they're AMRAAM equipped btw, unlike USMC) .

Not sure if Greek F-16s + Erieye need to deploy to Italy too.

There's already more aircraft involved than Libya has, I believe, depending on how you count.


Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Webmaster on March 20, 2011, 03:28:05 AM
Add USAF KC-10, plus USAFE F-16CJ (SEAD, but not necessarily).
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Viggen on March 20, 2011, 01:57:54 PM
Hmm, he ejected, but safely? Some rebel said he was killed.

About the (second) missile, I don't have a clue, maybe something a bit newer than SA-7, as I expected to see more smoke. But it does appear to come from below.

Looked at some more footage, at wider angle even, but about same direction, nothing else visible except the MiG-23. Also just the sound of one jet engine, then silence, then boom. Nothing more.


CNN said the pilot ejected safely and was ok. BBC said that the pilot ejected, but too late. No photos of the pilot or an interview have surfaced so, i believe you and BBC are correct.

That last footage you mentioned. That is the one i have been seeing. Thats why i first though AA-Gun or some sort of failure. The clip SU-Lover posted, tells me a different story. However i can always look at it frame by frame later today, and see if anything is showing. (Take captures of the interesting bits).



Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Webmaster on March 20, 2011, 04:56:46 PM
Three B-2s reported to have struck targets earlier today.

Today, RAF Tornado GR.4 + Typhoon deploying to Gioia del Colle. Last nights UK Tornados apparently also returned to the UK after their mission, unlike the F-15E from LN who went to Aviano.

Map bases + strikes: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12800377
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Webmaster on March 20, 2011, 05:44:07 PM
EC-130J and C-160G in action now

Belgian F-16s deploying to Souda AB tomorrow, they were already in Greece.

Qatar sending aircraft, probably F-16s as well. 4x Mirage 2000-5
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Webmaster on March 20, 2011, 05:51:13 PM
GMT 1648: A French military spokesman tells Reuters that 15 French planes were in action in Libya on Sunday, and that none encountered problems.
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Viggen on March 20, 2011, 06:35:42 PM
Add 4 F16´s from the Danish Air Force taking part this afternoon.
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Webmaster on March 20, 2011, 06:41:11 PM
Already mentioned the Danish. ;) But yes, they did take off this afternoon, approx. when the French planes were outbound. So I'd imagine no-fly-zone patrols.

Norway also reported to have planes ready. Not sure if ready means they are in Italy.

btw, Growlers noted at Aviano?
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Viggen on March 20, 2011, 06:53:34 PM
Already mentioned the Danish. ;) But yes, they did take off this afternoon, approx. when the French planes were outbound. So I'd imagine no-fly-zone patrols.

Norway also reported to have planes ready. Not sure if ready means they are in Italy.

btw, Growlers noted at Aviano?

He he, sorry!
CNN is just about to go live from the American base on Sicily (Trapani or something). Keep my eyes open and see if they will show anything interesting.

Im back, just missed it.
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Webmaster on March 20, 2011, 07:51:20 PM
Guess CNN calls everything an American base. Trapani is a ItAF base and NATO Awacs FOB. Didn't they mean NAS Sigonella?
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Viggen on March 20, 2011, 08:06:41 PM
Guess CNN calls everything an American base. Trapani is a ItAF base and NATO Awacs FOB.

Unfortunately CNN is the only news channel i have on the tv. I think the journalists are on speed or 30 cans of Red Bull. LOL!  I just saw the last 10 seconds of the segment. Nothing in the background was visible.

Btw, when the French Raphale´s were taking off. I saw canisters with the marking A/A MICA. Does all MICA-missiles have thrust-vectoring or only the latest generation?
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Webmaster on March 20, 2011, 08:15:26 PM
All have TVC afaik. I think there's only one generation yet. But there's two versions, RF and IR seeker.

Before the MICA they had the Magic /Magic-2. Maybe you had those in mind?
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Viggen on March 20, 2011, 08:24:36 PM
All have TVC afaik. I think there's only one generation yet. But there's two versions, RF and IR seeker.

Before the MICA they had the Magic /Magic-2. Maybe you had those in mind?

I read somewhere that MICA´s had thrust-vectoring. I know of the two different types (RF/IR). But i also know that they were introduced in the mid 90´s.  I always though of thrust-vectoring as pretty new technology.
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: SukhoiLover on March 20, 2011, 08:28:37 PM
All have TVC afaik. I think there's only one generation yet. But there's two versions, RF and IR seeker.

Before the MICA they had the Magic /Magic-2. Maybe you had those in mind?

R-73 was introduced in 82 and already had TVC ;)
Will we see any HUD footage anytime soon i wonder?
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Viggen on March 20, 2011, 08:34:56 PM
All have TVC afaik. I think there's only one generation yet. But there's two versions, RF and IR seeker.

Before the MICA they had the Magic /Magic-2. Maybe you had those in mind?

R-73 was introduced in 82 and already had TVC ;)
Will we see any HUD footage anytime soon i wonder?

Darn, i must have been living under a rock these past 25 years. LOL!  ;)

I hoping we get some HUD footage. Wonder who will be the first one?
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Webmaster on March 20, 2011, 10:13:05 PM
(http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/110320-F-GD765-001.jpg)

Maj. Lucas Teel and Lt. Col. Clint Mixon prepare to taxi their F-15E Strike Eagle March 19, 2011, prior to departing Royal Air Force Lakenheath, England. Units from the 48th Fighter Wing are conducting pre-deployment procedures in support of Operation Odyssey Dawn. Magor Teel and Colonel Mixon are with the 492nd Fighter Squadron. (U.S. Air Force photo/Tech. Sgt. Lee A. Osberry Jr.)
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: SukhoiLover on March 20, 2011, 10:56:10 PM
Call me crazy if you want but i would actually love to be in a F-16 right now heading to Libya to protect the airspace.

Hell i hate my eyes..... >:(
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Webmaster on March 20, 2011, 11:06:24 PM
Crazy...depends. Protect the airspace from what? The Colonial Crusaders? ;)

Charles de Gaulle also left port now, btw.

Eisenhouwer was still at Suez last time I saw it, or was it something else, shouldn't it be in the Med. Sea too by now? McCain was just complaining on CNN it was still too far.

Title: Re: Libya
Post by: SukhoiLover on March 21, 2011, 12:21:05 AM
Protect the airspace from the evil Gaddafi fighters muahahaha.....oh......wait........where are Gaddafi fighters? 8)
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: SukhoiLover on March 24, 2011, 10:03:50 PM
Protect the airspace from the evil Gaddafi fighters muahahaha.....oh......wait........where are Gaddafi fighters? 8)

Looks like i underestimated them....a French Rafale shot down a  G-2/Galeb.
Title: Re: Libya
Post by: Webmaster on March 27, 2011, 08:13:10 AM
No you didn't. It's not a fighter.

Well "shot down" sounds cool, but it should say bombed to death, it was already back on the runway and was destroyed using a AASM (abbrev. A2SM) bomb (PGM, not a missile, as the copy-pasting news agencies put it).

The next day five more G-2's were bombed and one Mi-35, stationary at the same base.

The NATO orbat is now quite extensive. I stopped watching it, since NATO assumed command, there are no longer the objections so everyone [well, almost] is sending their planes.

Nice to see Brimstone used as intended (vs MBT instead of single guy in a house). Other than that it's mostly GBUs now it seems, uhm and Tomahawks of course. Good to hear most HARMs are coming back to Italy, meaning no radar left, no "real" SA threats.