Ethiopia and Somalia

[Webmaster]

Legitimate target, but many civilians killed.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16537225/

now also helicopter gunships, also scroll down to read more about Monday's attack
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16531987/

[Valiant1]

Somalia should have been dealt with a while ago.  I have seen the movie "Blackhawk Down", which depicts, to the best of its ability, what happened to the US Army Rangers and Delta Force.  We got our asses kicked, but considering the odds were 50-to-1, I don't think we did that bad. 

After watching a documentary on the incident, Army Rangers and Delta Force were ready to back in, with full force, and finish the job.  However, those being interviewed said President Clinton would not allow it.  This was much to their disappointment as they wanted to go in and finish the job.

I think Gripen misunderstood Cobra 2...I don't like to see Somalian civilians killed, but it wouldn't bother me to see Islamist extremists killed. This bunch of  religious fanatics have committed atrocities in Africa, imposing their beliefs on everyone and if Islam is not accepted, they are tortured then killed.

It doesn't make Americans anti-Muslim, I have a close friend who is Muslim and he knows how I feel about Islamic terrorists and he agrees.  These religious leaders take their religion and learn how to use it and influence others to become part of their twisted ideals.  It is their way of keeping control of their people with complete absolution. 

Just look what they do to the Israeli civilian population - they've been slaughtered by human suicidal bombers.  Look at the 9/11 tragedy - they are told that if they complete the mission, they'd go to heaven and and 7 virgin wives.  Is that not twisted?

No other religion is tolerated in their counties, i.e. Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran, other than Islam.  Any other and you're dead.  In the US, we have freedom of religion and respect the other's beliefs, although we may not agree with them, but it is still respected. 

I think it's important to inflict the most damage and that is cutting off the head of the snake - the fanatic, extreme religious leaders who twist their religion into something else perverse - it's important that we do that to Al Quaida, whether they're in Afghanistan, Somalia, the Philippines, or wherever else.

The ones causing atrocities in Somalia are none other than this Islamis Somalian sect.  They should be the ones who should be eliminated.   

[Viggen]

You are of course right  Valiant1. However when it comes to religious fanatics, they are all twisted in their belives. No matter if they are islamic, catholics, buddists, jews or christian.

If you look at the conflict in Israel, then the suicidebombers are easy to understand. Not their choice of targets thou. Its the terror against the civilians that are wrong, but both sides just dont give a sh** anymore. They grew up with this kind of voilence, seen loved ones die or get hurt on either side. Of course they want revenge and payback. So there wont be any end to this conflict in the near future.

My question is, could the war between Ethiopia and Somalia spill over to Israel and Palestine?? With the whole middle-eastern and Africancontinent already being so unstable, was this involvement by US such a smart move?

[Webmaster]

My question is, could the war between Ethiopia and Somalia spill over to Israel and Palestine?? With the whole middle-eastern and Africancontinent already being so unstable, was this involvement by US such a smart move?

I think it will not, as long as the US keeps out of the conflict. I think this was not involvement, just seizing the opportunity to get rid of some terrorists, however unfortunate for the civilians. Don't think it will have large influence in the middle east, especially not compared with Bush's wish to send in another 20,000 troops to Iraq. The US has probably learned its lesson in 1993 when it comes to Somalia.

I wonder where the US stands when it comes to Ethiopia? Are they supporting it, even after the Ethiopia-Eritrea war?

[Cobra2]

I think Gripen misunderstood Cobra 2...I don't like to see Somalian civilians killed, but it wouldn't bother me to see Islamist extremists killed. This bunch of  religious fanatics have committed atrocities in Africa, imposing their beliefs on everyone and if Islam is not accepted, they are tortured then killed.

It doesn't make Americans anti-Muslim, I have a close friend who is Muslim and he knows how I feel about Islamic terrorists and he agrees.  These religious leaders take their religion and learn how to use it and influence others to become part of their twisted ideals.  It is their way of keeping control of their people with complete absolution. 

Just look what they do to the Israeli civilian population - they've been slaughtered by human suicidal bombers.  Look at the 9/11 tragedy - they are told that if they complete the mission, they'd go to heaven and and 7 virgin wives.  Is that not twisted?

No other religion is tolerated in their counties, i.e. Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran, other than Islam.  Any other and you're dead.  In the US, we have freedom of religion and respect the other's beliefs, although we may not agree with them, but it is still respected. 


Exactly Valiant1, thank you.

[Gripen]

Um, you know that the fanatic part of Islam is a sect that is different to the rest of the religion. Alot of Muslims are ashamed to be called terrorists or whatever because of this one sect. Not all Muslims are bad or evil, just the one from the sect, which i think starts with a H but i cant remember the full name of it

[Valiant1]

Gripen, you're right.  Not all are terrorist, like I said I have friends at work who are Muslims and they're not out to bomb the world.  There are terrorist organizations such as, of course, Al Quaida, Hamas and several others from the Shiite and Suni sects. 

It's the same for other religions - people take Christianity and turn it into their own. For example, look at Dave Kuresh in the Waco, Texas tragedy.  That guy took the Christian Bible and completely distorted the ideals for his own selfish motives.

It's these kinds of people who are a threat to the world and it's these kinds of people who are in Somalia and Ethiopia, as well as Afghanistan, who need to be eliminated without conscience.

[Draken]

Its the fanatics that are dangerous for the socaity. I dont matter what religion as long as you are a fanatic.. All fanatics goes the extra feet to for there belief. Thats why i dont like any religions. But i respekt people that belive in God ,allah or buddah. As long as it givs people joy i dont see a problem with it.

But its like soccer games here in Europe in the beetween 1970-1990. Lots of clubs had fantics that did whatever i takes to cheer it clubs. People got killed for looking at a soccer game.. Thats just ridiculous.

US says the fight for freedom in the world. Most Islamist thinks that US is Satan and by destroying US they will be free . So what is freedom i can say its not war anyway.

Sorry but i do not like US foreign Politics.

And to americans here just a question im intressted in. I dont mean anything bad im just wondering cause i don´t feel that way. And im very intressted how people think and why. Most americans are very patriotic and just wonder why. They are Proud of a country that was own by the natives and you treaht them like garbage (or did anyway).
America became land of the free when people immigrated from Europe and found amerika! ( I just feel you cant find a new country when people already live there its like finding a back yard) .

So my question is if you see it from different view how can a man be so proud off a country? its just a border and som stupid lines on a map.

Can people please fill me in on Patrioism.. 

[Viggen]

You can find fanatics in every country and religion. Valiant1 is correct, not all muslims are terrorists, only a handfull if you compare to how many muslims there are in the world. The nazis where fanatics, stalinists where fanatics and you have fanatics even in US. Even Sweden has its christian-fanatics, so far not any militant ones. But they have done some wierd s*%&# in the name of god. (Knutby is a good example of this).

Patriotism is a diffrent matter, it comes probably from the beginning of time. Like all animals that live in large groups, they have their own territories. Animals mark their surroundings by taking a leak or other ways by smell to let others know whos in charge of the area.

We humans have evolved so far now that we dont have to do this (piss on the bushes or trees). We draw lines on a map insteed. Patriotism is a way of showing that you belong to the pack and you are willing to defend it if necessary. But we say that its a feeling in our heart, a love for our country.

I know many people might be offended by being compared to animals, but we are not that diffrent just because we can read and invent stuff that help us in everyday life. Sharks has for example been evolving and existing for over 350 million years, the humans for aprox 4 million years. I have not seen or read about any other lifeform so far that would kill its own because the other one has a nicer jacket or over some tool.

I dont know who said it, but it kind of make sense for me.  "If  you take a close look at our prisons you will know how far our civilisation have evolved".

[Cobra2]

I agree Viggen 

[Draken]

I don´t.

first of all we are the superior animal on this world. We got a bigger brain then all other animals we also got choices between right and wrong. Other animals can be intelligent for they are able to learn what they have been taught, or they are able to associate related events or things etc. But animals possess no knowledge at all because they know nothing in the theoretical format.

In other words, they possess no theoretical stuff at all. So "knowledge!" and "intelligence" are two separate and distinguished things

As I believe that some animals can be more ‘intelligent’ than some humans and in any case whatsoever, But ‘rationality and wisdom’ is comprised of only those aspects of intelligence that can interact with theoretical propositions. So these aspects of intelligence have to be the part of only human intelligence and cannot be the part of animal intelligence.


So i mean that we now better then the animals so we cant compare us too them.

[Viggen]

Bigger brain?? The dolphins brain is the same size as ours and very similar to our own. You dont seem to be using yours, to have great knowledge is of course not the same as being intelligent. Intelligence is mesured in our ability to solve a difficult problem. Even animals have rational thinking and grow wisdom with age. Example of this is that and old animal does not attack a stronger younger one of the same size, because it would lead to injury or even death.

I think you are a bit narrow minded and put humans on a pedistal, we are not that special. Hitler thought the same way as you, he also thought the Germans had evolved beyond the animals and then of course the rest of humanity.

Maybe it would be better if we should have this conversation at home in private, insteed on this forum? You and I have always had very diffrent philosophical views of life, and our arguments always end pretty harsh.