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Author Topic: IAF fighting in Gaza Strip 01\2009-- " Cast Lead" operation  (Read 6037 times)

Offline Eldorado82

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IAF fighting in Gaza Strip 01\2009-- " Cast Lead" operation
« on: April 15, 2009, 08:28:36 PM »
what the world press said about that period of war? what told critics and airpower specialist OUTSIDE israel about the "cast lead" ? lets share our thoughts of what was wrong... what was right and if our air force acted right or not right....your opinions your thought about that period of times when i was sitting in my home and rockets were falling all around...was the action right or was it wrong? what do you thing about all the "cast lead" aerial front
Remembering Steven "TigerShark" Zeluff

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Re: IAF fighting in Gaza Strip 01\2009-- " Cast Lead" operation
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2009, 09:10:53 PM »
I agreed with it 100%. Whether it's Hamas and the Gaza strip, Al-qaeda in Iraq, or Somalian pirates, you HAVE to take a stand against outlaws!
Wars are won by carrying the 'heavy iron' downtown!

Offline tigershark

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Re: IAF fighting in Gaza Strip 01\2009-- " Cast Lead" operation
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2009, 10:00:34 PM »
Stand up and take the fight to them 100% I would also hit those tunnels weekly.

The Sudan convoy take out was interesting totally forgot about going through Sudan to get supplies those to Gaza, Egypt is useless.

Not hard getting weapons and other nasty things into Sudan that's for sure.  My own two cent some say I'm wrong but on some levels I still think Pakistan and Iran are connected some way.  Pakistan was training Sudan's navy how easy would it be to bring weapons right into Sudan's government/military controlled ports?

Offline Eldorado82

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Re: IAF fighting in Gaza Strip 01\2009-- " Cast Lead" operation
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2009, 01:59:31 AM »
main problem that we were introduced to the world as THE agressors . we were bombarding the OUNRA (UN) school and we re killing peacefull people (meaning the Gaza people) we killed toouch people.the mass media sees us now as a killers.murderers
Remembering Steven "TigerShark" Zeluff

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Re: IAF fighting in Gaza Strip 01\2009-- " Cast Lead" operation
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2009, 02:10:33 AM »
Don't worry. The intelligent people KNOW what really went down and how it was justifiably dealt with. It seems like every conflict the U.S. has they have had to deal with their enemy using civilians as "human shields" the way the Hamas did, then we get criticism for 'collateral damage'.
Wars are won by carrying the 'heavy iron' downtown!

Offline Eldorado82

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Re: IAF fighting in Gaza Strip 01\2009-- " Cast Lead" operation
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2009, 11:01:06 AM »
To my opinion the goverment didnt allowed AF to extendly use their power of fire due to palestinian "genocide" that we do in their territories.
that concept of "genocide" did bring to getting some weapons off the aircraftas soon as they reach israel. For example: the hives of rockets at AH-64 (apachee) isnt allowed in IDF because its uncontrollable weapon and it can harm peaceful people when its used.
we the israelis are famous due to our pinpoint hits when a missle can enters trough window into some terrorists house and to ruin it down. the other houses around would stand like nothing happened
Remembering Steven "TigerShark" Zeluff

Offline AviaL2

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Re: IAF fighting in Gaza Strip 01\2009-- " Cast Lead" operation
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2009, 01:11:44 PM »
aprox. 1400 killed 900 of them where civilians isnt that a crime? :( I believe Israel could stop Hamas with its secret services,easy as that.Anyway Gaza strip is like a huge prison 6x41 km i would also become what most of you call terrorist if you had me live in there along with 1.5 million people.


Offline RecceJet

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Re: IAF fighting in Gaza Strip 01\2009-- " Cast Lead" operation
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2009, 01:45:23 PM »
What is a crime?

Armed forces such as the Israel Defence Force, operate under what is known as the Laws of Armed Conflict (LOAC). There are three main principles that govern LOAC: military necessity, distinction, and proportionality.

If the targets engaged by the IDF were of military necessity, were identified as military targets, and any incidental collateral damage was proportional to the military advantage gained, it is lawful under the Geneva Convention.

The crime is when Hamas doesn't conform to the Laws of Armed Conflict, by conducting their military activities in close proximity to residential areas and protected areas, such as schools and hospitals. Hamas either doesn't regard human life with the same value or Hamas deliberately used civilian casualties to try to demonise the IDF's conduct. Either way, the only crime I can see anyone attribute to Israel is that Israel expected Hamas to fight by the rules and not hide behind civilians.

The fact that world media loves to blow selected stories out of proportion doesn't help either. It is in the media's best interest to have a spectacular story. Stories sell. Those of us who believe everything that a news agency (existing on good ratings) reports are naive to say the least. No story is objective; there is bias in everything.

There were reports that a lot of the people killed in that conflict were children. What the western world deems to be a child (under 18 years of age) is different than what is considered old enough to be an adult in the Arab culture. Kids as young as 12 are old enough to know how to hold, aim and shoot the universally recognised AK47 assault rifle. What were the statistics given about these so-called "children" then? How old were they, and under what circumstances were they killed?

I, for one, would like to see a lot more information and a lot less speculation from the world media.

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Re: IAF fighting in Gaza Strip 01\2009-- " Cast Lead" operation
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2009, 04:35:36 PM »
Well put Recce, I agree with you 100%.
Wars are won by carrying the 'heavy iron' downtown!

Offline AviaL2

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Re: IAF fighting in Gaza Strip 01\2009-- " Cast Lead" operation
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2009, 05:52:11 PM »

The crime is when Hamas doesn't conform to the Laws of Armed Conflict, by conducting their military activities in close proximity to residential areas and protected areas, such as schools and hospitals. Hamas either doesn't regard human life with the same value or Hamas deliberately used civilian casualties to try to demonise the IDF's conduct. Either way, the only crime I can see anyone attribute to Israel is that Israel expected Hamas to fight by the rules and not hide behind civilians.

How HAMAS was supposed to fight away from civilians?As i wrote above Gaza strip is 6x41 km and overpopulated.Civilians had no exit,borders with Egypt were closed and the Airfield was bombed in 2001 ,the port had Israeli patrol even humanitarian aid from Cyprus wasnt allowed to reach it and the boat was rammed.If you wanted to see them in fight by the book they should go into Gaza on foot to reduce collateral loses not use artillery and airforce.
There were reports that a lot of the people killed in that conflict were children. What the western world deems to be a child (under 18 years of age) is different than what is considered old enough to be an adult in the Arab culture. Kids as young as 12 are old enough to know how to hold, aim and shoot the universally recognised AK47 assault rifle. What were the statistics given about these so-called "children" then? How old were they, and under what circumstances were they killed?
Sterotypes westerns created,offcourse you will find pics of children holding guns but thats not how the majority of Palestinians is.Most children use slingshots and rocks instead of the universally recognised AK.


Anyway Israel in January gave birth to the next generation of those who you call terrorists.If they wanted peace they would have achieve it,if they wanted to get rid of HAMAS they could decap their leadership with Mossad.

Offline RecceJet

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Re: IAF fighting in Gaza Strip 01\2009-- " Cast Lead" operation
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2009, 11:32:57 AM »
    • The crime is when Hamas doesn't conform to the Laws of Armed Conflict, by conducting their military activities in close proximity to residential areas and protected areas, such as schools and hospitals. Hamas either doesn't regard human life with the same value or Hamas deliberately used civilian casualties to try to demonise the IDF's conduct. Either way, the only crime I can see anyone attribute to Israel is that Israel expected Hamas to fight by the rules and not hide behind civilians.
    How HAMAS was supposed to fight away from civilians?As i wrote above Gaza strip is 6x41 km and overpopulated.Civilians had no exit,borders with Egypt were closed and the Airfield was bombed in 2001 ,the port had Israeli patrol even humanitarian aid from Cyprus wasnt allowed to reach it and the boat was rammed.If you wanted to see them in fight by the book they should go into Gaza on foot to reduce collateral loses not use artillery and airforce.
I don't want to see anyone fight at all if I have any say in the matter. But this thread is in danger of heading in the same direction as that conflict: both sides consider themselves right and hell will freeze over before either will make meaningful compromises. I'm not about to go ahead and do that here; I'm here as an aviation enthusiast. There are other places to argue the more detailed politics of the Middle East.

As an aviation enthusiast I will only talk to any subjects that involve military aviation aspects in as far as this topic goes. What an Israeli naval patrol reportedly did with regard to blocking a shipment that allegedly carried humanitarian aid is, in my opinion, outside of the scope of this thread that Eldorado started.

It is true that it would be hard for Hamas to avoid fighting anywhere near populated areas. Yes, the Gaza strip is small, and parts are densely populated, but this in itself is no excuse. What I am referring to is the use of hospitals and schools from which Hamas conduct their operations. This is what is considered unlawful according to the Law of Armed Conflict. These locations are protected and must be respected by both sides of the conflict.

Civilians are going to die in any conflict. That is what a war does. As cruel as it sounds, this is lawful and legal in a conflict. Deaths of civilians are lawful in war when the military value of an engaged target exceeds the loss of life as a result of collateral damage. If a senior Hamas leader is in a car with his son, but the Hamas leader is crucial to activities conducted against Israelis, Israel is within their right to destroy that car with a missile, regardless of the innocent life that may be taken in that process. This is what LOAC is all about: using only the force that is necessary to achieve an objective, and only if the collateral damage is less than the value of the target.

Hamas members may live in the same places as other people. This is where precision munitions come into play. Again, the weapon used will be the one that best engages the target with the least probability for collateral damage.

    • There were reports that a lot of the people killed in that conflict were children. What the western world deems to be a child (under 18 years of age) is different than what is considered old enough to be an adult in the Arab culture. Kids as young as 12 are old enough to know how to hold, aim and shoot the universally recognised AK47 assault rifle. What were the statistics given about these so-called "children" then? How old were they, and under what circumstances were they killed?
    Sterotypes westerns created,offcourse you will find pics of children holding guns but thats not how the majority of Palestinians is.Most children use slingshots and rocks instead of the universally recognised AK.
I agree; if the majority of Palestinians carried Kalatchnikovs I think there's a really big problem! But if you read what I wrote above, I'm not stereotyping what a Palestinian is like, I am just pointing out that the universally accepted age of a child in the western world is below the age of 18. I'm then comparing that to how in the Arab world a child becomes an adult at a much earlier age. In their culture it may not be out of place for a person under the age of 18 to be active as an adult in society and regarded as such. Whilst in the western world it would be an outrage to have persons under the age of 18 fight in a conflict, it may not be the case in other cultures.

  • Anyway Israel in January gave birth to the next generation of those who you call terrorists.If they wanted peace they would have achieve it,if they wanted to get rid of HAMAS they could decap their leadership with Mossad.
I'm not quite sure where you want to head with this. I will avoid getting into the politics of the matter, as I have stated earlier. All I will respond to here is that the decision on how to engage a target is up to the commander. I cannot speculate what the commander intended as objectives for this conflict. It is possible that Hamas has learned to avoid being found by Mossad. I would venture than after decades of having leaders assassinated only the smarter ones survive! Both sides have been playing this "game" for a while now, and both are very good at it.

If a Hamas leader cannot be identified and located, the commander will determine what other courses of action are available to him in order to achieve his intent. Yes, it is possible that sending in troops might have led to fewer civilian casualties, but this will also have caused more casualties with the troops. This, again, is something that must be weighed against its value.

Offline Eldorado82

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Re: IAF fighting in Gaza Strip 01\2009-- " Cast Lead" operation
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2009, 07:43:06 AM »
guys lets not turn this branch of a forum into huge debate about our subject. Israel always be the  "agressor" and always will try to perform a genocide among the poor peacefull Gaza civilians. There always will be provocative pictures of Israeli policemen\soldiers\Magav soldiers hitting an inoccent palestinian and makes his nose bleed. Mass media searches for images like that to blame us about the desperate fight of the poor Palestinians and their dream to get their own land.
Mass media shuts its eyes upon rare vieo footages like Hamas terrorist uses innocent child about 3-4 years old like human shield when running in between the buildings where is fire of rubber bullets. the Mass media closes her eyes on footages that were taken from unmanned scout aircraft that the unit of 3-4 terrorists that were launching Qassam used vehicle of UN to bring the rocket and to deploy it in the woods of Beit Hannun to release the rocket and quickly run aways from the spot.


Today is another sad date - the day of Holocaust here in israel. I as a jew that lived in Lithuania, when in Lithuania and Polin was one of the highest number of jews was murdered, as ask you. jews and non- jews to stand today a minute of silence at 10:00 in the morning (GMT +2 timezone) to remember those who dissapeared in this hell on earth. I ask you to remember and not to forget. Each year we have less people that been there and can tell us how it wss to pass trough hell and hardly escape alive. I ask you to think again about these years. to think again about people like my grand-grandfather who was back in Vilna substitute of the chief Rabbi. his beard and sidecurls ( the long hair above the ears that is forbidden to shave to religious jews) were cut in front of his people, and he underwent lots of humiliating and horrible things. an elder,  that only a few months before  was their religious leader. (i know this from a friend of our family that passed away last year. he then was young a son of one of the important Jew family back in lithuania.) names of these two people will remain with my family forever. 

TO REMEMBER AND NOT TO BE FORGOTTEN!
Remembering Steven "TigerShark" Zeluff

 



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