Military Aviation => Defence in General => Topic started by: RecceJet on May 31, 2010, 01:44:36 PM

Title: Israel - What would you have done?
Post by: RecceJet on May 31, 2010, 01:44:36 PM
There's a lot of media attention on Israel right now. Accused of brutally boarding a ship and shooting innocent people. Damn those nasty Israelis again!

But, if you stop to think about it, Israel knows anything they do will attract worldwide condemnation. That always happens. Yet, they stick to what's important. The security of their nation.

The ships had to be stopped. Why? Because Israel needs to insure that whatever is brought into Gaza does not contain weapons later used against Israelis. Any country would do this to protect their citizens. On the land, Israel controls the humanitarian aid and can check to make sure weapons are not also sent into the Palestinian territory. At sea, anything can be moved in without knowledge.

So, if you were tasked with stopping this convoy so that you can be certain that no weapons get to Hamas, how would you do it differently?

I think, from what little I've seen on the videos made from the "activists", the IDF should be commended for the way they handled the situation. From what I saw, there was not a peaceful or calm reception when they boarded the vessels and I'm surprised the casualities weren't higher. If activists are going to be violent in the presence of armed soldiers, they will quickly find trouble.

Was the humanitarian aid on board so important? Then land it at a nearby port and take it through to the checkpoints on land where it can be verified not to be carrying weapons.
Title: Re: Israel - What would you have done?
Post by: F-111 C/C on May 31, 2010, 02:28:52 PM
I totally agree with you. I think the Israelis responded to how they were received. If, like you say, there were a calm, peaceful response to their boarding then perhaps things would have gone down differently. Israel lives a continuously precarious existence in their part of the world and cannot afford to handle things differently.
Title: Re: Israel - What would you have done?
Post by: shawn a on May 31, 2010, 07:53:37 PM
I also agree that Israel HAD to stop and search the ship or ships. However I have a slightly different viewpiont about this incident.I have not heard any details or seen any video of the incident.
My opinion is this:  It is a well known, indisputable fact that there is a suicide mentality among those who hate Israel. And there is what I would call a PR organisation within their ranks. There is no shortage of people among them willing to offer their lives to kill as many infidels as possible. I believe this event was crafted by the terrorists to give Israel a bad image. I believe the people on those ships were on a different type of suicide mission. I believe they were told to resist the inevitable and fully-expected boarding and to die while doing so. If the ship or ships were found to be free of weaponry, then there would be a tremendous PR coup for the terrorists. A clever twist on the usual suicide mission that terrorists love so much.
Shawn A.
Title: Re: Israel - What would you have done?
Post by: Viggen on May 31, 2010, 08:07:31 PM
I dont agree!

What they did on international water was wrong. Even the most incompetent fool would acknowledged that. They could of just waited for the ships to arrive into port or into Israeli territorial waters. 

Title: Re: Israel - What would you have done?
Post by: shawn a on June 02, 2010, 08:09:36 AM
If you sow ice you're going to harvest wind.
The terrorists have been sowing ice for many years. Why such an outcry now at the Israelis when terrorist acts on the high seas or in "Western, infidel" countries garner no such international outcry? No demonstrations over terrorist acts, no revenge killings over cartoons and videos demeaning "The West" have occured. The neo-hitler of iran can say that Israel will be removed from the map, but no demonstrations or riots.
I stand by my opnion that this was a suicidal PR stunt. Just a new form of suicide.
Title: Re: Israel - What would you have done?
Post by: RecceJet on June 02, 2010, 12:19:20 PM
Going back to the question I posed, there's at least one thing I would have done differently.

One piece of footage released and shown on the news and online is some infra-red video taken from an aircraft circling the ship that was boarded. It was showing the boarding of the Israeli Shayetet 13 ( team taking place, but before the first member even got onto the ship an awaiting crowd was readily visible.

My question is, why send in guys one at a time, reportedly armed with paintball guns, when there's a mob with iron bars waiting? I definitely did not get the impression that the activists were quickly overpowered as any competent military unit would strive to achieve in the first instance. The boarding by helicopter should either have been called off, due to the crowd being seen on the infra-red video feed, or they should have used tear-gas to disperse the crowd and gain the initiative.
Title: Re: Israel - What would you have done?
Post by: Viggen on June 02, 2010, 01:00:52 PM
I agree with you Recce.

Attacking a ship in international waters no matter the circumstances, is no better then what the Somalian pirates do. The famous hight standard tactics used by the Israeli special forces seems to have been forgotten in this case. We all know that they are more professional then this. That is why i did not agree with how the operation was conducted on international waters. As soon as you use "boots on the ground", people will get hurt!

Besides that, this is an well organized professional convoy with help to a country that is suffering from years of war.  There is no weapons that is going to be delivered in these ships. There are better ways for that then using a high profile convoy.

Israel have themselves to blame in this case.  They could of solved this problem much easier by being more diplomatic.  Stopping a convoy by placing a few warships in their path would have also been easier. Its not likely they would ram the Israeli ships, since that are on a humanitarian  aid mission.

Unfortunately there is always people out there who make decisions when they dont have all the facts or get the whole picture. They just see whats infront of them and react harshly without thinking things through. Making enemies is easy, making friends is harder.
Title: Re: Israel - What would you have done?
Post by: RecceJet on June 05, 2010, 07:46:59 AM
Attacking a ship in international waters no matter the circumstances, is no better then what the Somalian pirates do
Viggen, I don’t personally agree with your view.

A merchant ship that passes the Horn of Africa is not interfering with Somalia. It doesn’t threatening Somalia’s security or seek to foster international opinion. For a team of Somali individuals to then board such a merchant ship with the goal of holding it for ransom is piracy.

A cargo ships bound for Gaza do interfere with Israel’s national security. Israel will not just take someone’s word for it that there are no weapons on board. No country will accept someone else’s statement that the ship is only loaded with humanitarian supplies. Israel did not board vessels in order to hold them to ransom. Israel boarded them to ensure weapons do not get to Gaza, because they will and do get used against Israeli civilians.

The reference to piracy, therefore, is not an accurate one.

…that is why i did not agree with how the operation was conducted on international waters.
The US embargo against Cuba which started in March 1960 involved a naval blockade in international waters in 1962. In fact, this embargo still exists today. The right for a sovereign state to enforce a naval blockade in international waters to enhance its national security is not a new concept started by Israel. Without intending to point fingers, the British had a blockade in that same part of the world at the end of the Second World War; preventing Jewish refugees from getting to then Palestine.

Israel interdicts weapons shipments anywhere they can. I believe they’ve done this within neighbouring  and nearby countries in the past, so the concept of International Waters won’t stop Israel. In fact, if a ship in International Waters is involved in criminal activity, any nation can exercise jurisdiction. Israel considers the ships to have a potential for links with weapons transfers, and therefore has the right to inspect.

No country that I know of will just take some organisation's statement that they are only delivering humanitarian aid. If there is credible evidence that a ship can be carrying weapons, I'm pretty sure that the country of each member on this forum would board the ship.
Title: Re: Israel - What would you have done?
Post by: Viggen on June 05, 2010, 02:02:03 PM
@ RecceJet

I know the history and in the case you bring up, there was real evidence. Note though, that even in that case no boarding took place. Only Navy vessels firing warning shots, and this despite the fact of knowledge that nuclear arms were being transported. It was solved with help of strong diplomacy by JFK. So i dont see how you can compare this to a convoy that is transporting aid. 

Ship To Gaza is a humanitarian aid mission organized by Europe, we all know that there is NO weapons on-board these ships. Sure, i can however see this being used by a lone ship to smuggle weapons in the future. But this was a high profile aid mission, not even the most crazy fanatic would take the chance to smuggle weapons on any of these ships right now. They will be escorted into port  and searched. Even the civilians on-board knew that. That is Israels right. 

To board civilian ships, using extreme violence and killing innocent people without evidence. Is that ok with you?  If it is, then im sorry to say that we have nothing more to say to each other.


You all have to see the big picture. This was Israels way to make a statement that they dont want Europeans to get involved in what they consider being their business. I oppose the tactics being used, and the way they blame everything on terrorism as an excuse to pull things like this off.

I dont even live in the region, and im tired and sick of hearing about how both sides keep blaming each other for this and that. If Israel was in the same state as Gaza, then they would also receive humanitarian help/aid. However they are already getting that support and more by US. 

You need to stop looking at this as an episode of 24.