MILAVIA Forum
Military Aviation => Defence in General => Topic started by: alyster on August 19, 2007, 12:16:04 PM
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According to RIAN (http://en.rian.ru/russia/20070817/72189719.html) Russia will resume stradegic bomber patrol flights which were stopped in 1992. The first parol should be over now and if I'm not harshly mistaking then Norwegian fighters even observed them.
Anyway it got me thinking. Russia's bomber fleet is quite old. Only handful(16?) of Tu-160 made it into service before the production was canceled. So they have around 180 Tu-22Ms and around 90 Tu-95s. They are getting kinda old now. May this mean that we soon see some new Tu-160 BlackJacks entering the service because I think they might have a need for it. And wouldn't they probably be newer versions?
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If a productiom line closes, it is very difficult to reopen (you need the machines, the tools, tha material resources) so i doubt if they will be able to built nre Blackjacks....so i think that the legendary shape of the Bears will be a frequent silhouette in the skies.
Some years ago, i had read that the Russian airforce were studying new bombers (ultra fast) and a Sukhoi design was very close to mockup prototype. Maybe this move will now be completed....
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Yes, Norway and also the UK have made multiple scrambles to intercept Bears.
They have 15 Tu-160 in service. Actually recently one more Tu-160 was produced at Kazan, from an incomplete airframe when production stopped in 1994-1995. They are still pretty young.
They have around 64 Tu-95MS Bear-H remaining in service. Produced in the 1980s.
Both are being upgraded now, with new navigation and fire-control suites, and new weapons including the Kh-555 non-nuclear cruise missile and other stand-off guided weapons.
The Tu-22M3 are also being upgraded, but reports indicate progress is slow with only a few upgraded since 1999.
And the Russian Navy operates about 50 Tu-22M3 and 15 Tu-142MK/MZ Bear-Fs. These Bears will probably not be upgraded, because the need for a long range ASW aircraft is diminishing. It also has some Tu-142MR Bear-J radio relay aircraft remaining. However with this stuff going on at the North pole, and current political situation, I wouldn't be surprised if they will.
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I think this is a pure press thing like Russia going back to the old glory day's type thing. I'm sure some of these crews making these long flights must be concern these are old aircraft. I'm sure there must be some interesting stories from the former Bear crews from the peak cold war times.
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If a productiom line closes, it is very difficult to reopen
If I'd dig in alittle more then I'd probably find a direct quote, but this spring or winter Putin said that Russia has stored most of the production lines and can swiftly reopen massive arms prodution. I'm not sure if it included the Blackjacks or any of the Bears but that's what Putin said.
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It's very-very good news!!!! Our answer to american PRO in Alyaska. ;)
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A little help please what is "PRO in Alaska. javascript:void(0);
Smiley
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It's very-very good news!!!! Our answer to american PRO in Alyaska. ;)
why your answer, if you aren't from Russia?
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Belarus was a part of the former CCCP.
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I know. I thought, however, that they were like... happy to be independient... I don't know, that's why I asked.
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Belarus and Russia should be in some (not so well functioning?) commonwealth. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_Russia_and_Belarus)
I thought, however, that they were like... happy to be independient... I don't know, that's why I asked.
Sergei knows more, but not all in Belarus like the fact that there is no more USSR. Baltic States are happy, as the Eastern-European satelite states. Situation in CIS however is some what controversial.
Now we're off to politics again :-\
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I explain. PRO - protivoraketnaya Oborona (on-ангийски: antimissile defense). One of places of a disposition of her elements - Alaska. Now Americans have conceived to put bases of antimissile defense in Poland and Czechia ostensibly for protection against the Iranian rockets. BUT! Iran does not have intercontinental ballistic missiles. And in the nearest years 5 will not be and in a mine. Russia has the full right to organize constant fighting watch by forces of Distant Aircraft above water areas of Arctic and Silent oceans.
And I so am happy, because my father three more years served as the assistant to the commander of a heavy bombing division on air base Ukrainka (the Amur area) back. And now this division will carry constant fighting watch. For this reason I so am glad.
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Ok, thanks for explanation.
So maybe they also have something new? If they are reopening the lines maybe we get to see that something?? ::)
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Well maybe in the future, coming from Sukhoi. But the Sukhoi T-60S project is still canned and the design is deemed to be infeasible as far as I know.
If a new Russian bomber is born, it's probably not a Tupolev, since the company probably lost all its military aerospace engineers when it started to focus on civil aviation. Tupolev and associated production facilities KAPO (old Tu-160 line) and Aviastar are busy producing Tu-330/Tu-214/Tu-204 airliners. I think we've seen the last of the Tupolev bombers with the Tu-160.
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Pretty good Reuters report from the Russian perspective. Hopefully this resuming of these missions will finally stop all the talk about the Russian air force being crap and unable to afford to fly. Like I said earlier on this forum, especially long-range aviation is well financed nowadays.
Russian bomber jets resume Cold War sorties
By Dmitry Solovyov
Thu Aug 9, 11:45 AM ET
MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russia's strategic bombers have resumed Cold War-style long-haul missions to areas patrolled by NATO and the United States, top generals said on Thursday.
A Russian bomber flew over a U.S. naval base on the Pacific island of Guam on Wednesday and "exchanged smiles" with U.S. pilots who had scrambled to track it, said Major-General Pavel Androsov, head of long-range aviation in the Russian air force.
"It has always been the tradition of our long-range aviation to fly far into the ocean, to meet (U.S.) aircraft carriers and greet (U.S. pilots) visually," Androsov told a news conference.
"Yesterday we revived this tradition, and two of our young crews paid a visit to the area of the (U.S. Pacific Naval Activities) base of Guam," he said.
President Vladimir Putin has sought to make Russia more assertive in the world. Putin has boosted defense spending and sought to raise morale in the armed forces, which were starved of funding following the fall of the Soviet Union.
Androsov said the sortie by the two turboprop Tu-95MS bombers, from a base near Blagoveshchensk in the Far East, had lasted for 13 hours. The Tu-95, codenamed "Bear" by NATO, is Russia's Cold War icon and may stay in service until 2040.
"I think the result was good. We met our colleagues -- fighter jet pilots from (U.S.) aircraft carriers. We exchanged smiles and returned home," Androsov said.
Ivan Safranchuk, Moscow office director of the Washington-based World Security Institute, said he saw nothing extraordinary in Moscow sending its bombers around the globe.
"This practice as such never stopped, it was only scaled down because there was less cash available for that," he said.
"It doesn't cost much to flex your muscles ... You can burn fuel flying over your own land or you can do it flying somewhere like Guam, in which case political dividends will be higher."
COLD WAR CAT-AND-MOUSE
The bombers give Russia the capability of launching a devastating nuclear strike even if the nuclear arsenals on its own territory are wiped out.
During the Cold War, they played elaborate airborne games of cat-and-mouse with Western air forces.
Lieutenant-General Igor Khvorov, air forces chief of staff, said the West would have to come to terms with Russia asserting its geopolitical presence. "But I don't see anything unusual, this is business as usual," he said.
The generals said under Putin long-range aviation was no longer in need of fuel, enjoyed better maintenance and much higher wages, a far cry from the 1990s when many pilots were practically grounded because there was no money to buy fuel.
The generals quipped that part of the funding boost was thanks to a five-hour sortie Putin once flew as part of a crew on a supersonic Tupolev Tu-160 strategic bomber, known as the "White Swan" in Russia and codenamed "Blackjack" by NATO.
The current state of Russia's economy, which is booming for the eighth year in a row, has allowed Russia to finance such flights, said Safranchuk from the World Security Institute.
"Maintenance and training are not the most expensive budget items of modern armies. Purchases of new weapons really are."
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If Suhkoi's Superjet 100 gets ready, which is as strongly hyped as A380 or B787, Tupolev is going to lose alot to Suhkoi on the airliner market also. Seems like not the brightest future for them. I really don't know too much of the air liners, does Tupolev even have anything new?
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Well Tupolev also builds the Tu-204/214 medium size airliners. Tupolev also has much more experience with airliners than Sukhoi, so I don't think Sukhoi is the biggest threat to them... Embraer however... And they are working on a new transport, the Tu-330: http://www.tupolev.ru/English/Show.asp?SectionID=123 Bit of a smaller non-military C-17 or jet engined A400M, to replace the An-12 and equivalent. Should be quite a success, the domestic market for a medium-sized cargo plane alone is pretty big.
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Just for the record, the Tu-160 wasn't actually a Tupolev's design...it was Myasishchev M-20. So the last Tupolev's bomber was the Tu-22 Backfire....
The T-60 looks like a monster to me, it will be much expensive for the Russian standards....
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Ok may I ask that why is Russia restoring their bomber patrols? what kind of threat are they getting ready for? or would it just be like an excercise?
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Just for the record, the Tu-160 wasn't actually a Tupolev's design...it was Myasishchev M-20. So the last Tupolev's bomber was the Tu-22 Backfire....
M-18 actually, but Tupolev OKB developed the paper design into the Tu-160.
Ok may I ask that why is Russia restoring their bomber patrols? what kind of threat are they getting ready for? or would it just be like an excercise?
Read the article I posted, it's about flexing muscles for political purposes, training and morale boosting. It's about power and deterrent. You see how all the press picked up on this! It works. It also works for those CIS states, Russia has power is the message, you don't need to join NATO for security. And intelligence gathering probably as well.
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Oh ok thanks Webmaster!
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I read your artical you pasted Webmaster and thats very interesting. So Russia has the funding to buy fuel for jets now?
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well, they basically move Europe with gas and petrolleum, so...
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And would these bombers be carrying bombs? probably a stupid question. I wouldn't think they would as they don't have any intent on offensive actions.
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I don't think they are to fear, easy Cobra ;)
would you imagine if someone uncovered the fact that they do travell with bombs :o That would be a real "bomb" ;D
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Nope! Tu-95MS are actually missile carriers, and the conventional missiles are not in service yet, so if they would be armed it would be with nuclear Kh-55s!! I think under START-II treaty it's only allowed to be able to carry 6 Kh-55s, instead of the max 16 that was envisaged by the USSR for this type of Bear... but I'm not sure if it's that's treaty Bush and/or Putin ended...? :-\
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Actually, the Backfire was pretty cool. Assuming they will develop and build more bombers, then they would become a really really major superpower again? Like above the USA? From what i know of this subject, (Which isn't much in itself), Russia has better ICBMs than the US, even with both side's depleted stocks.
So, basically you appreciate the fact that the Russians are coming back to immense power, Sergei? We all know the size and natural resources of Russia. Like i've said before, just saying we don't want to take over the world doesn't mean some crazy idiot won't.
I'm not being negative here, just in case you get that impression. ;D
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The Dutch evening news had a report on Russia, you know about the bomber patrols, CFE treaty cancelation (conventional arms, so it answered my question regarding START-II, that wasn't it, still no Tu-95MS-16 for now), the planting of the flag on the seabottom at the North Pole, and showed some footage from MAKS talking about Russia's pressure on Poland and the Czech Republic.
The Funny thing was, they had a picture for each topic, picture of the flag regarding the North Pole thing for example and guess what the picture showed when they said bomber patrol...
The Frecce Tricolore team in perfect formation with their almost harmless MB339 jet trainers! ;D ;D ;D LOL, I guess the reporter saw them at MAKS... thinking hmm, why isn't the green smoke blue?
The missile defense shield topic, showed a picture of I think SA-6 or Hawk-I in some desert camo. But nvm that.
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There is no START-II anymore, it was replaced by SORT.
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And they are ready to get out of it, if NATO keeps on pressure on the Czechs for the anti-ballistic missile shield...
Russia is going to be better than the USSR the next decade, I think. Not only in military terms, but financially and socially as well. Just as the "never Soviet" generation becomes the workforce and the majority (that will happen by the beginning of the next decade), we'll see them catapulting into a superpower again...
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Russian economy in large part depends on oil and gas exports which were fatal for the USSR.
Also their population shrinks about 700 000 people a year. Estimates say that in a decade or 2 they won't have enough people to control all of their land.
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RAF photos!
RAF Typhoon from Number XI Squadron shadowing a Russian Tu-95MS Bear-H aircraft over the North Atlantic Ocean on 17 August 2007.
I also added one pic from the days when the Tornado F.3 used to this job, also the Tu-95MS, and one from Lightning times interception an early production Tu-142... note the big surface search radar housing.
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compare the pics in qualityt!! Much has changed ::)
and the good ol' Bear still sees generations of aircraft passing by... but he is still around there... >:D
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prpbably more of a training thing, and to show that Russia still has power, and they willingness to use them if they want or need to
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By the way, I think photo 3 is an escort of the Bear to RIAT or another airshow, because the Tornado's are unarmed.
This one is an armed intercept of a Tu-142. Quite recent as well, 2002.
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Nice pictures, The Bear looks like Fidel Castro - it can out live everything.
Anyway can someone confirm is "PAK-DA" a rumor?
A couple of months ago the Commander of the Russian Air Force (RFAF) Vladimir Mikhailov mentioned that the development of the Russian strategic aviation will not be focused just on further upgrade of the Tu-160, today’s world best strategic bomber. It was the first time when an official of such level mentioned principally new aircraft. This week this information was publicly confirmed by the Deputy Commander of the 37th Air Army major-general Anatoly Zhiharev, who also gave some details of the project. According to him the designers received technical specifications from the Air Force necessary to implement. R&D on the new aircraft has been already included in the federal budget. The militaries claim that the new aviation complex will be totally different from the existing planes and surpass the characteristics of the foreign analogies. It will be able to take off from different types of runways, including unpaved and short, to penetrate through any systems of air defense, to fulfill mission on any battlefields (over land and sea), in any weather and climatic conditions. It will carry conventional and high precision weapons (missiles and bombs). Unlike the Commander of the RFAF, who earlier said that the new aircraft will hardly appear in the next ten years, Zhiharev speaks about ten years as a usual time between the begging of the R&D and appearance of the new aircraft.
However, in the foreseeable future Tu-160 will be able to fulfill all missions of the strategic aviation. At least in the next ten years even older Тu-95МС and Тu-22М3 “will have no noticeable disadvantages”. All have a perfect platform for upgrade. Combat opportunities of the upgraded aircraft increased drastically. During last experimental bombing the deviation of the bomb dropped from Tu-22M3 did not exceed one meter. Such accuracy can be regarded as high precision arms. According to the official estimation of the Russian Air Force representative existing planes can stay on duty another 20 years, even 50. First of all it concerns Tu-160.
One of the most important developments that took place with Tu-160 is fitting it for conventional arms. This process started in 2005 with the aim of making the Air Force ready to fight terrorism. Then there were several successful tests of the strategic bombers in the Far East, including one held in the presence of the President of the nation. Once the President himself flew the aircraft as a co-pilot. In 2006 the tests continued in the Atlantic, Northern and Indian Oceans. Each year the Air Force gets one or two upgraded Tu-160. Modernization is viewed also as the R&D for the construction of the next generation aircraft, which will carry cruise missiles with the extended range and principally new equipment. Tu-95 will be decommissioned not sooner than in 10 years. Tu-95 is very economic, has excellent take off weight characteristics and can stay in the air for 25 hours. Its upgrade is also focused on using conventional and high precision arms.
Some of the new high precision arms have been commissioned with the Russian Air Force. One of the most recent developments is guided bomb KAB-500S-E. This is Russian analogy of the American JDAM (Joint Direct Attack Munition). KAB-500S-E will be used by the new aviation complexes at the altitudes of 500- 10000 meters with the speed of the carrier between 550-1100 km/h. Its accuracy is 5-10m. The “brain” of the all weather bomb is 24-channel GLONASS/Navstar PSN-2001 designed by the Moscow based KB Compass. KAB-500S-E is deemed also for export to India and China. Technically it can be used on the newest aircraft Su-32 and Su-35.
Yuri Seleznyov
Pravda.ru
http://english.pravda.ru/russia/economics/90775-russian_bomber-0
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/ext.php?ref=http://paralay.narod.ru/t60/pakda1.gif
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Well not really, I mean you never know.
I believe it's just a name given by the public/press to the continuation of strategic bomber development by Russia. I've seen little about it, apart from old T-60 era drawings and the link you provide only gives info on the available engines, and that it won't be ready before 2015. This article also estimates the Tu-95 to remain in service for about 10 years, while the Russian general that was in the Reuters articles says 2040. That's a huge gap. Also if you look at the original article in which RF Yuri is quoted, it actually is more like: there's no way we will be development a new bomber any time soon, the work is just research/conceptual until at least 2015.
*Sarcastic* I can tell you the same about the US, it's called the ATB program, now I'll show you some FB-22 concept art if you want, but it's not like that, so let me get some old 1980s design to show you as well. It won't be like the B-2, more like the B-1, but not really. Okay? And I can tell you it won't be ready before 2015 since the B-52, B-2 and B-1B have or are receiving radar and other targetting upgrades. Also, it will be powered by enhanced F119 engines, but there's also the possibility of continuing developed based on the SR-71's engines or a new version of the TF-30.
Get my point?
Looks like a rumour based on old facts and new possibilities.
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Great pictures ! The Bear never dies eh ;D
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I have a off the wall question could a B-2 buddy fuel feed another B-2 so they could reach any target in Russia from any direction? My point being that no tanker would pop up in the middle of nowhere near Russia airspace. Or could a B-2 buddy feed say two or three F-22s on a deep penetration mission? What I'm trying to see if possible is a pour stealth mission could maybe a F-22 in it's internal bay carry a fuel bladder and buddy system probe. Just wanted to throw this out there while we were talking about strategic bombing.
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Ok, So it's like Russian Aurora.
I thought it was wierd, I hadn't heard about it before, the name is taken from PAK-FA and there was not a word of the contractors.
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Nonpilot. Whatonearthdoesthenamemean?
Sounds like an interesting concept. Wonder why they never just built a stealth tanker. Or increase the range of existing stealth aircraft.But they could start outside the Russian radar range, couldn't they? I mean, like re-fuel just outside then go in like nobody's business.