£210m upgrade for Norfolk warplanes

[tigershark]

£210m upgrade for Norfolk warplanes
12 January 2008 06:00

A £210m deal will be unveiled next week to upgrade a fleet of Norfolk-based warplanes ready for new missions in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Aerospace firm BAE Systems will be given the task of equipping 104 Tornado jets from RAF Marham with better communications and precision bombing equipment so they can work more closely with British combat troops on the frontline.

The move was welcomed last night as sign that the future of the west Norfolk airbase - and the jobs that depend on it - were secure despite Ministry of Defence (MoD) cuts elsewhere.

Link to story
http://new.edp24.co.uk/content/news/story.aspx?brand=EDPOnline&category=News&tBrand=edponline&tCategory=news&itemid=NOED11%20Jan%202008%2022%3A00%3A09%3A367

[Gripen]

I thought they were retiring the Tornado because of the Typhoon??

[tigershark]

It's funny that you say that because I thought the same maybe they need to keep a certain number of air frame active for safely reasons.  Part might be because the Typhoons can't carry out all the mission types the Tornado can,I assume that will change in time?  Or maybe the RAF knows more Typhoon's aren't coming down the pipe and keeping a number of Tornado's makes sense.   

[Webmaster]

This is why I always emphasize the importance of considering which variant they are talking about. But even then, the Tornado is far from total retirement. It's more like the F-15Cs being gradually replaced by F-22s, while F-15Es do all the fighting in the meantime. I'll straighten you guys out:

RAF has two main variants of the Tornado, the Tornado F.3 air defence variant and the Tornado GR.4 interdiction/strike variant.

The Typhoon has started to replace the Tornado F.3 in the QRA / air defense role. The first 72 Saudi Typhoons were originally destined to go to the RAF. This enables the RSAF to start conversion and the RAF to eventually get more capable Tranche 3 planes. (plus I think that in-service Typhoons will soon be undergoing Block 5 upgrade to bring the whole fleet to the same spec plus adding initial A-G capability... reducing Typhoons in active service).

Now because of this, there's a slow down in RAF Typhoon growth. So it's expected the Tornado F.3 will soldier on for longer than anticipated. Which it can handle, the aircraft are not that old, just obsolete and expensive to maintain and fly.

The article concerns the Tornado GR.4 strike aircraft though, you can call it a bomber. Now, as you know the Jaguars had been withdrawn last year, so they first need to be replaced with Typhoons. The Tornado GR.4s (mid life upgraded Tornado GR.1) will soldier on for a long time to come. When Tranche 3 Typhoons are entering service, some can be withdrawn. But the remainder will ultimately be replaced by advanced/stealth UCAV. IIRC the GR.4 was planned to be retired by 2017. But some say it could be 2025-2027 for the last GR.4 to be put out of service.

This could mean the Typhoons will not make it to Afghanistan, as the Tornados are going now. Anyway, even if you would retire them within a few years, you could still consider this upgrade if you want to deploy them to the coalition war until then. It's only a small update, probably pooling a handful of additional Litening and/or Sniper pods.

[tigershark]

Thanks webmaster
For no reason really I don't dislike Tornado (either version) but on the other hand it never grab my interests.   I still don't understand how England one of my countries closes allies isn't flying F-15s or F-16s?   The choices were made before I really got into military aviation I'm old but not that old.  I assume England didn't want to just throw away and aircraft industry and was booming for a period of time.   It just seems wrong to me that England didn't have a real fighter between F-4s to current  Typhoons right?  What was England's front line fighter before the F-4?  The US went through a bunch F-100, 101, 102, I'm drawing a blank on F-103, F-104 Starfighter, F-105 Thud, ?  F-4, F-5, F-14,F-15, F-16,F-20,F/A-18, F-117, F-22, and F-35.  To me the F-111 should have been B-111 but that's another story.   

[valkyrian]

My friend, before the F-4, the mainstay of RAF was the BAe Lightning, a sort of English made F-104. It was light, powerful, cheap and made with British pride. The rate of climb could easily compete with the F-15 Eagle....But it was short ranged. In the sixties the F-4 was the best aircraft money could buy. But the British pride wouldn't let a 100% machine to enter service. So they thought "...what if we put other engines?" And here it is the F-4 K/M. The Rolls Royce Spey was as powerful as the F-14's TF-30, and much more reliable, but due to modifications to the inlet, the result wasn't so brilliant as it looked on the paper.
By then, we have reached the '70s, an era were  Germany was looking to replace the fighter bomber F-104, Italy was looking to replace the G-91 and some F-104. The F-15 wasn't flying as a prototype, the F-16 wasn't even on the drawing board, so those 3 industries, with enough experience in plane making, decided to go on with a new design, forming the PANAVIA concortium. Simultaneously another engine consortium was formed, named the Turbo Union.....

Tornado was a fine aircraft for its era. Swing wing, 3-shaft engines, nice electronics.....sure thing it is not a F-16 or F-15 in the close in, but it could stay airborne for a long time (with wings at straight position, and a very fuel efficient engine) and protect the British waters like the F-14 could do for the fleet air defence.
So that's why England didn't buy F-15. let alone F-16s. Italy on the other hand had enough airpower for its needs, and Germany with 900 (!) F-104 bought, several F-4F for airdefence, didn't need any dogfighter. After all, the whole NaTO airforce was based in Germany.....

Before the Lighting, some ugly shaped "abominations", like Hawker hunter, Buccaneers and other ugly looking designs were serving the RAF. The British comited suicide when they killed the BAC TSR2 in favor of the totaly failure F-111K. The US pressed so hard on that direction (like what they did with the Canadians Arrow). In the end, not only they didn't buy the F-111K which prooved to be costlier than TSR2 (not to mention lower capabilities) but they paid a whole load of money in aquiring nothing. With the TSR in service, they could have a very capable strike reconaissance platform. Considering that the Tornado was designed as a bomber and then became an interceptor, same thing could be done for the TSR2..........

[Raptor]

The Hunter and the Bucaneer are not ugly, Valk...

I thought almost all the F.3s were going to be retired by this year... 

[Webmaster]

No, only half of the remaining force. Probably two out of four squadrons, plus the flight at the Falklands, will be flying Tornado F.3s for the next few years. 25 Sqn and 56 Sqn will disband this year, leaving 43 Sqn and 111 Sqn at RAF Leuchars with 16 a/c each, plus 4 with 1435 Flt at RAF Stanley. We'll see how long they last, if any more cuts need to be made the F.3s are likely to be the first to go out.

[valkyrian]

Even though the beauty cannot be measured, it is very difficult to accept the Buc or the Hunter as aesthetically accepted....compare what the English were designing at the same time their American counterparts they were designing "hot" planes, like the F-100, F-102, F-5, F-4.. you'll be as much dissapointed as i did...

I left the Russians out, since they have repeated the concept of "tube + wings" so many times (Mig-15/17/19/21/ Su-7/9/11)

Back to the topic, Tornados are better suited in the modern battle field than the EF. After all, when you try to blow some terrorists out of their caves, you don't put in risk a multi million euro silver bullet EF, instead you use the old but with great potential Tornado.... No other aircraft can match a low level high speed flying IDS. And since some will add that "low" is dangerous, the Tornado with the high efficient wing (it has the best subsonic coefficient of lift Cl) and the fuel efficient engines, can stay "high" for a long time.

[Raptor]

The F-100 and 102 weren't exactly... Good looking... 
Agree with you on the Russians.

True about the Typhoon being costly, but why would they want the Plane to hang around for so long? Just launch a salvo, and go into high altitude orbit if you have to watch the aftermath...

[valkyrian]

The F-100, with its striking metal finish, the swept back wings and the buble canopy looks to me very handsome. The -102 isn't so good looking though....

Combat loitering is something you need. You can stay high and loitering away from any harm, and when the opportunity arises you can go there quickly.....

I strongly believe that the tornado airframe still has much to give. Imagine that there are many nations that have upgraded the F-4 (Greece Germany).