MILAVIA Forum
Military Aviation => Military Aircraft => Topic started by: God Bless USA on May 26, 2008, 02:55:45 PM
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The helicopter would have to perform ground support, tank elimination, etc.. Now which one would you perfer?
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Apache for obvious reasons.................cept I'll take an A-10 over a helo any day............
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I don't like polls too much:
The helicopter would have to perform ground support, tank elimination, etc.
All the types you listed can do that and most countries don't have large tank formations anymore so taking out tanks isn't as important as once was. Overall performance, cost, weapons suite, counter measures, maintenance hours, hot and cold flying, data links, targeting radar, etc, mean much more then destroying tanks.
Types you listed:
Bell AH-1Z HueyCobra
AH-64D Longbow Apache
Both saw action
Boeing RAH-66 Comanche - I believe the project was canceled and was never produced.
Eurocopter Tiger - will see action soon
Agusta A 129 Mangusta - I don't think its been in combat but there is a chance it has, its been out for a while
Denel AH-2 Rooivalk - No sales yet and don't think South Africa use it in combat yet,
Kamov Ka-50 Hokum
Kamov Ka-52 Alligator - Either the Ka-52 or the Mi-28N according to some Russian web sites had four or five flights in the Chechen's conflict. For me difficult to prove (helicopter flights) and the Chechen's conflict in general little information was released about the air war part of the fighting. If you ever find any please post it or PM me, thanks.
As you can see asking which is the best when only a handful has been in combat is difficult. You left out the Mi-28N type which actually won the Russian choice for attack helicopter to replace the Mi-25 series. But like most things Russian almost eight years and just this year a engine was chosen so going into full production is another matter.
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Out of all of them which have seen the most extensive combat op's?
The Longbow Apache(which is a damn good chopper), the Cobra, and the Huey(another damn good chopper).
Plus Russian helo's. The others are not extensively combat proven, the Comanche was canceled............
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With ground to air missles would the A10C Warhog be a better option? I read a article which stated Russia thinks the SU-25 Frogfoot is less acceptable to ground to air missles (lower infer-red signature). Does anyother country operate dedicated ground support aircraft?
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In my opinion yes, the A-10 is a better option, but the plus about helo's is you can carry a good amount of munitions and you can fly around for a while and support an invasion at low level.
Define, dedicated ground support aircraft, because there really are very few that are truly dedicated to that role. The A-10 is even capable of attacking aerial targets.............everything seems to be Multirole these days..........
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iluveagles I agree the A-10 when it can be use is a better option. The jet just keeps on ticking and with the newer upgrades will be around a little longer as well. Both don't well in a SAM environment or even anti-aircraft guns but the A-10 can take a beaten and dish out a lot of hurt. The big advance it has over helicopters besides armor is it speed but used as a attack jet role and the lack of speed hurts it. The A-10 has a certain nitch or area it must stay in but in that role it performs very well. Can't think of the name but I read a book years ago about A-10s in the first Gulf War, good reading.
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My thoughts exactly, the A-10 is just awesome at what it does, and you can't shoot it down.............. I'm convince that if you blew of an engine a wing and a half and most of the horizontal and vertical stabilizer it would still come home..........lmao ;D
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I know the Commanche was cancelled, but i thought it was a recon helicopter anyway, not a tank buster ???
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Your right on the mark Gripen it was a recon helicopter by design but capable of carrying some anti-tank missiles. A lot of money went into this design/project that at the end I think was basically a budget cut. To be honest I'm not strong in helicopter and maybe somebody else knows the finner details on why. Maybe the task of a semi stealth armed scout helicopter didn't have a place in the US Army's future.
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I know the Commanche was cancelled, but i thought it was a recon helicopter anyway, not a tank buster ???
In a strict sense, the Australian Tiger helicopter is also predominantly a reconnaissance platform. It should actually be designated as RAH rather than ARH. Not sure if other countries intend on using it in the same way.
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To me the Comanche just seemed like an X-plane for instance...........it really didn't have a place on the battlefield............other than the stealthiness, the Apache can do its job better if not much better than the Comanche, and it carries more weapons................
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Theres some good shots of the Commanche on an episode of American Chopper, they build the Commanche bike for someone, if you interested
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Did they now? Thats interesting.........
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yeah, they got .50 caliber machine/rifle bullets, drilled them and used them as little missiles on something on the bike, it was kinda weird :-\
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well no one ever said they were rocket scientists.............. ;D
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Back to the A-10/OA-10 Thunderbolt II and it designed for close air support of ground forces. I read in the future they want to replace it with JSF. The JSF will not have the GAU-8 30mm Avenger seven-barrel gatling gun or provide the crew with the titanium armor that protects both the pilot and critical areas of the flight control system. Don't you think the war in Irag and Afghanistan will cause the military to rethink its stratagy, and keep this aircraft or redesign one just for close air support of ground forces?
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The A-10 will be on the scene for some time, its just been upgraded and it still works like a charm. When they replace it will the JSF, it will just have to drop bombs and that type of thing, I don't see them using a 20mm cannon on a tank, but maybe is a 20mm laser cannon.....................(yes I am joking..............).............
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Cool! One engine, no armor protection yes I agree they will need that 20mm laser Cannon.
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Your right it won't have the GAU-8 30mm Avenger seven-barrel gatling gun or provide the crew with the titanium armor that protects both the pilot and critical areas of the flight control system, but will have a lot more useful and modern equipment and systems that the great A-10 won't. In the years to come there will be a host of new and nasty weapons designed to come out of a F-35 bay for destroying similar targets. I'm not saying the A-10 will be totally gone from the battle field anytime soon there are still areas/hot spots where there be effective for sure. But as weapons gets more modern light Manpads and other light weight weapons fielded by ground troops will make A-10s and basically all helicopters a dangerous platform to operate. The extra hight and speed does help and give the pilot more chance to spot or detect the danger and get out of the threat area or range.
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I agree the A-10 and helicopters are very vulnerable to ground to air weapons due to there slow speed. They do need a replacement, designed for todays battlefield. Two thing concern me with the F-35 as a replacement. First I think they need a aircraft with two engines. If one engine is hit the aircrew can either make it back to base. If they can't maybe they can get far away enough from the enemy to be pick up safely after they parachute out. Second the GAU-8 30mm Avenger seven-barrel gatling gun has proven to be an effective weapon. They tried this weapon on the F-16 and it did not work. The airframe could not handle the recoil. The F-35's airframe will not be able to handle it either.
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I can't argue the A-10 is designed pretty well for what it does. No fast mover could take the hits the A-10 does that's for sure and the separated engines with armor protection is the best. I guess no matter how the USAF cuts it the F-35 can only carry out some of the A-10 current functions.
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I voted for the Comanche, but yes, it has been canceled and the money has gone towards upgrading other US Army hardware. But, for my money, the best attack helo in the world atm is the Israeli AH-64. Israel have brought something good from the US and 'perfected' it.
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I voted for the Comanche, but yes, it has been canceled and the money has gone towards upgrading other US Army hardware. But, for my money, the best attack helo in the world atm is the Israeli AH-64. Israel have brought something good from the US and 'perfected' it.
What changes did they make?
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Here's a short exerpt from Shlomo Aloni
"The Israeli Longbow Apache is essentially a US Army Lot-7 AH-64D integrated with Israeli systems including: Elisra, an integrated electronic warfare (EW) self-protection suite that includes a radar warning receiver (RWR), laser warning system (LWS), missile approach warning system (MAWS) and an electronic counter measures (ECM) system. (The Elisra EW suit is actually a derivative of Lockheed Martin's F-16 I Sufa (Storm) self-protection suite ? itself a derivative of the Boeing F-15 I Ra'am (Thunder) self-protection suite. Elbit HeliCom command and control mission management system overlaid on a moving-map display (MMD)and integrated with the Elbit Integrated Helmet and Display Sight System (IHADSS)."
* Rafael data link
* IAI Elta satellite communication (SATCOM)
* Rokar chaff and flare dispensers
Website:
http://www.helitorque.com/portal/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=30&page=2
There's more on the website if you're interested.