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Author Topic: New Sukhoi Jets ‘Attacked’ by Malfunctions  (Read 7009 times)

Offline tigershark

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New Sukhoi Jets ‘Attacked’ by Malfunctions
« on: February 21, 2009, 02:47:57 AM »
New Sukhoi Jets ‘Attacked’ by Malfunctions
News / National / Article

Markus Junianto Sihaloho

Two of the Air Force’s three new Russian-made Sukhoi jet fighters were struck with what are believed to be minor mechanical problems during a training session over the Makassar Strait on Friday.

Air Force spokesman Air Commodore Chaeruddin Ray said two SU-30MK2 fighters, each flown by one Indonesian and one Russian pilot, were undergoing interception exercises when an alarm signalled in both aircraft that they were under attack from a foreign jet fighter.

The pilots reported the warnings to the Makassar Airbase, which ordered both fighters to return to base where they landed without incident, Chaeruddin said.

He rejected suggestions that there was another aircraft trying to engage the two Sukhois, saying radar evidence around Makassar had not detected any other fighter aircraft above Sulawesi Island.

“After the report [from the Sukhoi pilots], a surveillance aircraft was also deployed to search, but no other aircraft was found.”

Chaeruddin said data collected by the Air Force led to the conclusion that the two Sukhois’ “lock system,” which detects enemy weapons targeting, had malfunctioned.

“Technicians from Russia are already [at Makassar Airbase] to check and repair the aircraft,” he said.

The Air Force previously dealt with an unnerving incident in 2003 when two of its F-16 jet fighters made contact with five F-18 Hornet jet fighters belonging to the US Navy, which had earlier been found maneuvering above Bawean Island, Central Java Province, for more than two hours.

Both sides’ jet fighters were close to firing at each other as the F-18 fighters went into attack mode and had their missiles locked on Indonesia’s planes.

It ended with a communication of peace between the pilots after one of the F-16 fighters was able to indicate they were not a threat.

Source
http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/news/national/article/10655.html

Offline iluveagles

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Re: New Sukhoi Jets ‘Attacked’ by Malfunctions
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2009, 07:36:06 PM »
Well, that is Russian technology for you. Aircraft like the Su-30MK(the last initial is that of the country it is manufactured for, btw, IE, India has MKIs)are medium maintenance aircraft. Certain crucial parts require more maintenance than others. You have to remember that the Russians are good at building rugged aircraft and equipment that can withstand a lot, however, when it comes to engines and avionics they lack quite a bit. Their engine technology still sucks(this is not in regards to T-V, which is marginal). Their engines are still, big, noisy, and very hot engines(in other words locking on to a Russian aircrafts exhaust for an IR shot, tends to be easier than if you try the same on US/NATO aircraft because we have thrust cooling technology on almost all of our aircraft, esp. Low Observable aircraft).

Other than that, these countries would be so much better off purchasing F-16s or F/A-18s from us. They are obviously higher maintenance, but we are significantly better at offering support for aircraft we sell to other countries than the Russians. What probably comes into play though, is that we won't sell them everything they want.

Offline tigershark

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Re: New Sukhoi Jets ‘Attacked’ by Malfunctions
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2009, 01:27:09 AM »
I think India is a good example on judging Russian made aircraft and have many years experience thus decided on going with foreign equipment and sub-systems: Israeli, French, South African, and Indian, on the MKI Flanker.       

A good Indian Flanker link with complete breadown
http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/info-su30mki.html

Quote
Quote from the link
The induction of the Su-30 was'nt without its share of problems. The average servicibility of the 10 Su-30MKs fell to 69% during 1997-1998 and further reduced to 62% 1998-1999. Similarly, the average availability of SU-30K aircraft for operations also declined from six aircraft in 1997-98 to four aircraft in 1998-99, out of total strength of eight aircraft. This happened because the MoD did not order spares for the aircraft and the IAF was using spares supplied at the time of induction - supplied back in 1997. The MoD finally signed the general spares contract in January 1999.

Problems were multiplied due to the poor poduct support from the manufacturers. Apart from delivery of eight SU-30K aircraft during 1997 the manufacturer was required to supply 72 associated equipment like tyres, brake parachutes, specialist vehicles etc. valuing US $ 347.85 million, equivalent to Rs 1252.25 crore during 1997-2000 in a phased manner. The contract explicitly stipulated that equipment to be delivered by the manufacturer would be new, unused, of current production and serviceable. However, the a large percentage of the equipment delivered by the manufacturer between 1997 and 1998 was old, used, corroded, defective and unserviceable, though full payment had been made. For example, the specialist vehicles supplied were old, corroded and inoperable and others items like parachutes were torn and damaged. Aircraft tyres were found to have cut marks during initial inspection. The IAF made 48 claims from sukhoi but only 15 were cleared as of July 1999.

Quote
Another quote
Servicability. In September 2003 and again in December of the same year, the local media reported that some of the AL-31F turbofans had to be overhauled prematurely, after completing an average of "700 Hrs", instead of the advertised 1000. The cause of this was described as "nicks" in the turbofan blades, and the whole squadron was reported to be completely "grounded". The IAF dismissed these allegations as only rumours, but admitted that some engines had developed these problems in their blades. Unfortunately, the accuracy of media reporting can be questioned considering that simultaneusly aircraft were appearing all over the country for aerobatic events in public events! In various interviews, IAF Chief ACM Krishnaswamy rejected the media reports as cynicism and stressed that blade nicks, which appear due to pebble ingestion, do happen and there is nothing unusual and specific to the sukhois. There were accompanying rumors that the IAF had even refused to accept a batch of SU-30MKI production, which were simply untrue.

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Re: New Sukhoi Jets ‘Attacked’ by Malfunctions
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2009, 01:36:51 AM »
Since when is a false report of the RWR a mechanical problem? Mechanical/electrical issue on both aircraft, unlikely.

In both aircraft? Each detected eachother as foreign maybe? Or something other than an aircraft was detected as a threat. Sounds to me like a IFF issue, a software problem. Which might be a 'local customization' issue, earlier their Su-27SK/30MKs weren't flying because they hadn't asked for them to be fitted with compatible radios for the Indonesian (Western equipment, I suppose) comms in use.

Or, Indonesia is indeed downplaying a intrusion of its airspace.


Well, that is Russian technology for you.

Sure, Western tech is superior, but that doesn't prevent teething problems (happens to new aircraft in general, not exclusively to new designs) and malfunctions from occuring.

Aircraft like the Su-30MK(the last initial is that of the country it is manufactured for, btw, IE, India has MKIs)are medium maintenance aircraft.

So? These are brand new aircraft, straight out of the factory, hence the Russian pilot in the second jet.

Certain crucial parts require more maintenance than others. You have to remember that the Russians are good at building rugged aircraft and equipment that can withstand a lot, however, when it comes to engines and avionics they lack quite a bit. Their engine technology still sucks(this is not in regards to T-V, which is marginal). Their engines are still, big, noisy, and very hot engines(in other words locking on to a Russian aircrafts exhaust for an IR shot, tends to be easier than if you try the same on US/NATO aircraft because we have thrust cooling technology on almost all of our aircraft, esp. Low Observable aircraft).

Don't see the relation with a malfunctioning RWR.

Other than that, these countries would be so much better off purchasing F-16s or F/A-18s from us. They are obviously higher maintenance, but we are significantly better at offering support for aircraft we sell to other countries than the Russians. What probably comes into play though, is that we won't sell them everything they want.

You get what you pay for and then a bit less, true (but the latter also applies to US export products, e.g. F-15S). Russia isn't "customer-service-oriented", true. But US is not selling military hardware to Indonesia... it's under embargo, right? They already got the F-16! Certainly not getting support for them, afaik the F-16s are grounded, no spares support, I think they've even been withdrawn from use entirely. Neither is Europe I think... Hawks grounded too, or not?

So they had four options: MiG-29M/M2, Su-27SK/SMK/-30MK and perhaps F-7, F-8II. They got the best and most flexible/multirole option.
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Offline iluveagles

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Re: New Sukhoi Jets ‘Attacked’ by Malfunctions
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2009, 01:55:26 AM »
Just to clear things up, I was just going off of the mechanical issue deal, I didn't get all the specifics on the issues.

Yes, that is very true, all aircraft have issues, but we do a pretty good job of getting things like that worked out quickly. The Su-30 in itself is not really a new aircraft. It's an updated version of the Su-27, so in reality the only major issues it should have are software problems, which new or not, it's Russian and is bound to have a few kinks at least.

As I said above, I was going off of the mechanical malfunction, it's been a busy day and I didn't have time to read more into the subject, I've been working on some other stuff involving the SR-71 and a few other interesting items so I was pre-occupied.

I never said that they could get more F-16s, I was trying to point out what you said in that first line, "You get what you pay for" rather than that they could right that instance purchase a bunch more F-16s. When it comes down to it, it's Indonesia. The day they can match any of the Western countries in technology, whether it be with Russian or our own will be the day I learn to fly by flapping my arms.

Tigershark:
The Indian's seem to have a better time at it because, like you said they get the aircraft and make their own modifications. They're pretty good at the systems stuff, but they don't have the aircraft manufacturing industry that Russia does(even if it is sub par in many places).

Also, Russian engines, as I previously mentioned, suck. If there is anything about their technology that is behind everything else, it is their engine technology. They can't make a decent engine worth a damn.

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Re: New Sukhoi Jets ‘Attacked’ by Malfunctions
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2009, 02:14:28 AM »
Mechanical issue comment was on part of the author of the report, not you.

I think that the credit for making that foreign equipment shopping list of the Indians work on the Russian jet, goes to Irkut and any supporting representatives of the equipment manufacturers, and then India. And Irkut did it again for Malaysia. I think Irkut should be praised for this, not India. And the Israelis of course. But that's just my modest opinion on it, as other projects by India to fit non-Russian equipment to Russian jets don't fare too well or usually involved the help of Israel. Sorry, I've become a bit suspicious of India's technical know-how, talk the talk, but don't walk the walk just yet kinda thing.

I think India is a good example on judging Russian made aircraft and have many years experience thus decided on going with foreign equipment and sub-systems: Israeli, French, South African, and Indian, on the MKI Flanker.       

Your first quote is definately a good example of lacking support, but root of the problem seems lacking quality assurance and assessment processes of the manufacturers and control over subcontractors quality processes. The state is no longer watching over their shoulders... which wasn't that perfect either, but now it seems they can make 'short-cuts'. It will be long before they are at the Western level, just like Indian (general) manufacturers needed to learn when they started to export to the Western world.

Your second quote is definately a good example of the media jumping on some minor problem and presenting it in such a way that it damages the air force / manufacturer / politicians that were in favor of the jet. I wouldn't be surprised if similar reports will materialize when/if they get F-16s, as I have been told the F-16 just loves to eat pebbles. But contrary to Russia, US/LM might go as far as supporting/consulting base reconstructions to avoid such problems.
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