India's Mirage 2000-Hs getting Python V and Derby beyond-visual-range missiles

[tigershark]

I guess it was a money thing but they should have done this five years ago and maybe buy 40 to 50 new Mirage 2000-5s at the same time.  Mixed the two models together and added 90/100 modern all purpose fighters to there air force years ago.  I still think they went to far with the Mig-21s and needed an aircraft upgrade for years.   



 India Finalizes Mirage Upgrade Deal
Dassault, HAL To Overhaul Aircraft’s Avionics, EW, Displays
By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI, NEW DELHI


India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) and France’s Dassault Aviation will work together to upgrade 52 Indian Air Force Mirage 2000-H aircraft. The $800 million deal has been finalized and the contract will be signed in 2007, a Defence Ministry official here said.
Dassault will upgrade the first two Mirages in France, where HAL engineers will participate in the work. The new avionics, to be bought from Israel, will be installed on the Mirages at HAL facilities in India.
The remaining 50 Mirages will be upgraded in India with technical help from Dassault, the Defence Ministry official said.
A HAL executive said Dassault’s agreement to train HAL engineers in France is the first of its kind for India.
HAL, India’s sole aircraft manufacturer, will remain the prime contractor for the contract and will be responsible for the overall combat-worthiness of India’s Mirage fleet, the Defence Ministry official said.
Dassault will receive 60 percent of the cost of all the Mirage hardware.
The Indian Air Force will also be involved in the upgrade, the Defence Ministry official said, but not with the purchase of the upgrade hardware, a condition the Air Force had earlier insisted upon.
The upgrades include:
• New avionics, including an advanced navigation system, mission computers, Mil 1553 B data with Digibus, a pulse doppler radar that can find objects out to 70 nautical miles.
• Two displays and an advanced head-down display in a glass cockpit.
• Electronic warfare systems, including new radar warning receivers with instantaneous wide-bank receivers, an integrated missile warning receiver with continuous time-to-impact information, and new jammers and countermeasure systems.
• Increased fuel capacity.
The improved Mirages will carry up to four Derby beyond-visual-range missiles, at least two short-to-medium-range Python V missiles and long-range smart munitions.
The deal with Dassault also includes full mission simulators.
The upgraded aircraft will have a warranty of 24 months or 360 operational hours.
Along with the Russian Su-30 MKI, the Mirage is the Air Force’s main combat aircraft, a service official said. The Air Force’s fleet strength has been sliding due to retirement of several of its MiG aircraft. India acquired its first Mirage 2000H/TH fighters in the mid-1980s to equip two air defense squadrons, and has lost at least seven through accidents. •

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=2779851&C=europe

[valkyrian]

I wonder why the French never developed a better engine for the M2000, it could boast it's performance by quite a margin...I hoped that those clever Indians could make something like this, but in vain...

[Globetrotter]

You are right, a new engine, turbofan if possible, would have put the Mirage 2000 in a different level... andimagine if it had now TVC Awesome, and relatively simple aircraft/.... Is there any chance that indians put in it the MiG-35 engine? It would be something reeeeeaaaaly awesome

[Webmaster]

Dassault would not approve of such a move. You'd need to update the flight control system as well, put Russian one in?? Forget it, it's not that simple. It won't be cost-effective. Re-engine an operational fleet in an upgrade program, mostly only replaces an old version with a new uprated derivative...

Take a look at the upgrade though, it makes it a very capable fighter, with those missiles, new radar and EW upgrades, you don't need to get yourself in a dogfight. Any word on the exact type of radar?

Also, they only need to update the M2000 fleet until more Su-30MKI are on strength and the M-MRCA is being delivered. So it doesn't have to be that comprehensive, actually it should be completed rather soon, they can't afford 5 years development time on an upgrade.

I agree that capability-wise, they should have bought 40-50 M2000-5s 5 years ago, and have the M2000 fleet upgraded then to the same standard, and should have bought those ex-Qatar machines right away. Then they probably could have retired the MiG-29 now, instead of upgrading that one as well.

But well, if done 5 years ago, I am not sure the upgrade would have included those Derby and Python V missiles.

[valkyrian]

Dassault would not approve of such a move. You'd need to update the flight control system as well, put Russian one in?? Forget it, it's not that simple. It won't be cost-effective. Re-engine an operational fleet in an upgrade program, mostly only replaces an old version with a new uprated derivative...

South African's tried a RD33 powered Mirage F1. Why can't be done? Who will ask Dassault? Only the money is the problem...

[tigershark]

I read that some place a few years ago but never saw anything final on why it did or didn't work.   Wouldn't it change the balance of the aircraft?   The engine they tried was the D-33 model that smoked like crazy too but it almost doubled the power.  India could put a RC400 RDY radar in there current Mirage 2000 and go the cheap way out to have MICA capabilities and still keep there single engine low maintenance fighters.  It seems to pain India to go American but the Block-52/60 Viper would make the most sense.  It gives them a proven bomb truck with all the advance goodies one could want plus a kick ass fighter which could be equipped with ASEA radar.   They could really replace both there Mirage 2000s and the older Mig-29s on one shot, just move part of the production there to make HAL happy and be done with it.   The Viper can more then carry out any mission the old Mig-21/93 could do and that was the bulk of the 126 aircraft bid request in the first place right?  In certain way one could say a Mig-29 is better then a Viper maybe in close in fighting but India only has the older slightly upgrade Fulcrums anyway and the 9X off sets that.   If India placed an order for Block-60 three years ago they would be flying the brand new F models right now training new pilots and having the most advance radar equipped fighters in the region.  I'm sure Pakistan hoping they drag it out longer while the PAK air force are a year plus away from there first JF-17s and maybe two years plus away there first J-10s.   And since China already produced more then (100)  J-10s already I assume China government or money thing is holding them back.   Maybe China will unload a squadron of the first produced models early one never knows.   

[valkyrian]

In such cases what matters mainly, is the mass flow. It is possible that the more powerful engine requires more air and therefore different inlets. Newer engines are shorter, so the balance could stay much the same. The F1-RD33 proved the "marriage" of French airfame and Russian engine. Why couldn't be that with the M2000? Surely the F-16blocks 60 surely is a kick ass fighter, but how many productions lines can Lockheed Martin create (already one in Turkey) to satisfy the Indians?

Hey Tigershark, it seems we are on line at the same time...........

[Globetrotter]

I am not sure if what I proposed would be profitable though... but it would have been a good thing to do some years before, of that I am sure

[tigershark]

It might be a better time now for deal on jet engines from more dependable source then Russia.  These below two links are signed agreements with Russia could not only provide home made produced jet engines for India’s Mig-29s but also as an upgrade for the Mig-27 attack jets.  It would increase lift and speed on the Mig-27s which India also produces themselves.   I saw pictures of the new upgraded cockpit for the Mig-27 and some of the weapons and systems are shared on and from the Jaguars, which HAL also produces.  Valkyrian you know more about designs then I do and I’m sure you right about the flow but I know I read something about the balance being important.   India will be allowed to sell these engines and the RD-93 and I think webmaster even said the AL-31 is built off the D-33 engine.  I think very soon would be a good time to buy engines and India will be right there.  The old Russian engine supply chain gets a bad rep and India just slides right in.   I know Mig-29N users who are getting Indian training currently that would buy engines off them.  Imagine Pakistan buying engines or parts for there RD-93 from India five or more years down the road.   Hey I have to have a little fun when I’m writing this stuff.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/asia_india/index.php?offset=10
http://www.india-defence.com/reports/2834

[valkyrian]

One think that i admire in Indians, is that they have a strong aero industry, despite their economic situation. Untill recently, thet had kept Canberas in flying condition by making engine spare parts themselves. They are clever people, and have a strong willed goverment. I think they can manufacture russian engines very well.

[tigershark]

I think they have learn over the years on what they can can't on the Russians for and what they can't.  They were burned badly on the Mig-29 when first purchased.  Remember India got them well before many Eastern Block countries at the time.   There were problems with the Flankers too but not nearly on the same level.   India for me is hard to figure out some times there right on and totally doing the right thing and moving in a good direction.   Other times they beat things to death and can't make a choice no matter what. 

[Globetrotter]

I guess that they bare those problems for something... They are loyal customers since the Su-7 and MiG-21....