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Author Topic: Colombia buys 24 Israeli fighter jets  (Read 13937 times)

Offline tigershark

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Colombia buys 24 Israeli fighter jets
« on: February 07, 2008, 03:14:28 AM »
Colombia buys 24 Israeli fighter jets 
Wed, 06 Feb 2008 19:42:40
A Kfir Jet fighter
Amid mounting tensions between Colombia and Venezuela, Colombian defense minister announces the purchase of 24 Israeli fighter jets.

Colombia's Defense Minister Juan Manuel Santos made the announcement after meeting with Israeli War Minister, Ehud Barak.

"There is an agreement to buy 24 renovated Kfir fighter planes from Israel, whose construction has already started. And the planes will be delivered at the start of next year," Santos said.

In his visit to Israel the Colombian minister also held meetings with senior military officials as well as Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert.

Kfir aircraft is a multi-purpose all-weather fighter jet, mainly used by the United States Navy.

NA/MMN

Link
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=41986&sectionid=351020703

Offline valkyrian

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Re: Colombia buys 24 Israeli fighter jets
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2008, 01:01:28 PM »
Kfir in the US navy was known as F-21. I don't know how many have been bought but i guesss you could count them on the fingers of your palm.

Kfir has the J79, so i think the US must give their authorization for this.

Offline Elias

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Re: Colombia buys 24 Israeli fighter jets
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2008, 01:43:05 PM »
They still make the Kfir? :o :o :o I guess I missed that memo! ;)

Seriously though I would really love to learn why they made that decision. I am sure that the US, France, Sweden or Russia would love to get that order and Colombia would love to get a newer aircraft. Was it budget constraints or the fact that Israelis could deliver 24 aircraft in such short notice?
« Last Edit: February 08, 2008, 01:55:08 PM by Elias »

Offline tigershark

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Re: Colombia buys 24 Israeli fighter jets
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2008, 08:10:21 PM »
valkyrian you are correct about using the J79 engine the US must give their authorization for this.  Since Chavez is so US friendly I see no problem with this.

Elias I share your thinking other aircraft would have been better suited but like with anything there are details involved.  Budget constraints like you mention plays a factor but I think time restraints may have effected the rushed decision.   I think the need to get Colombia's fighter program going took center stage so bring in an aircraft that's already in service puts less strain on a average to small air force.  Somebody correct me but isn't the start of third year Venezuela's pilots been training on there shinny new Flankers?   With 24 aircraft you'll train up 50 pilots plus maintenance personnel as so your basically upgrading your air force standards.   This is the direction needed to jump over into ex-Israeli Vipers, Israel got a bunch of A/B Falcons that have already been through the ACE upgrade.  Both have the EL-2030 radar so weapons, systems, training can carry over which for Colombia is good.  I assume Derby and Python IV but maybe V, again Chavez may help that decision along.   Then within three years after just picking up ex-Israeli Vipers the US will offer as part of a aide package to Colombia a over sized squadron of Block-50 Vipers, so LM can keep the production lines open just a little longer.  Sound possible? 

valkyrian maybe if Colombian could open a branch for LM employees in there government now they could just order the jets now and skip the above, laughing. 

For the region since it might cause Ecuador's AF a Chavez friendly government to go shopping a little since Colombia pick up some new toys.  Now since Ecuador might be picking up some new toys Peru may go shopping.   China should be signing a new deal for leasing out the American base in Ecuador that US Forces are being asked to leave so maybe China will break into the South American market?   Sound possible?   

It seems silly but if Colombia, Ecuador, and Peru pick up aircraft in the next year or two, Brazil's fighter bid purchase will go through for sure.  Maybe the Rafale will get pick up? 

Can somebody provide a link to which missiles are involved in the Russian- Venezuelan deal, thanks


Offline Webmaster

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Re: Colombia buys 24 Israeli fighter jets
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2008, 12:00:26 AM »
I think you're missing an important point here: Colombia already operates the Kfir C7/TC7.

Renovated, meaning they are ex IDF/AF airframes brought back to flying status, overhauled, and probably upgraded to at least C7, but probably C10 variant. The type is no longer in production.

Main user was Israel of course, today I'd say Sri Lanka is probably the 'main' user of the type... To answer your question: 25 for the aggressor role, modified C1 versions, with basically no effective air-to-ground capability. They were returned when the lease expired back in 1988/1989. I don't know how many, but some are still operated by US companies providing training services to the US armed forces, including the Navy. I'm not sure if they are the old F-21s or ex-Israeli ones.

Since the J79 are already owned by Israel (don't have to be bought) and old hardware, I don't see any troubles with getting US clearance to sell them on, as long as they're not going to a country befriended with Iran, but especially not in this case where Colombia already has J79 powered Kfir, and probably get parts for them all the time. Whereas reselling entire F-16s might be more of a problem. Anyway, this is the cheapest option for "new" fighters for Colombia, skipping a whole lot of training and support infrastructure investment. Colombia's budget is tight, and all US Foreign Military Sales aid contracts have focused on equipment for the war on drugs (which happen to be the same as COIN would require). I can't see them supplying high-end fighter jets to Colombia.

China, well who knows, but the US might rather break up the base than just give to any other 'world power'. However, I think Ecuador would also seek Mirages or Kfirs if the need arises, and Peru would most probably shop Russian or relaunch/speed up their SMT upgrade plans. K-8 and FC-1 are still interesting options though, but buying Israeli jets will give you superior Israeli missiles. I don't think Derby will be involved in the deal though.

Well, I'd assume at least the R-73. I haven't seen any info on the missile package, I'm not sure about the R-77 being involved, afaik, India is still the only foreign R-77 user, which will be followed by Malaysia pretty soon I guess. If R-77 hasn't been sold to Venezuela, then I'd assume one or two newer versions of the R-27 will be in the package. Third year, yeah, I guess if you count training in Russia, however in Venezuela there's been some delay according to some undisclosed source due to the fleet having been grounded following discovery of rust, which has been resolved now.
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Offline Cobra2

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Re: Colombia buys 24 Israeli fighter jets
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2008, 01:10:06 AM »
They still make the Kfir? O_O

wow......lol


Interesting news, Steven, thanks!  :)

Offline Elias

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Re: Colombia buys 24 Israeli fighter jets
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2008, 01:59:28 AM »
Very informative posts and excellent points guys!

I didn't know that Colombia already used Kfirs and it definitely makes sense now. Colombia's tight budget definitely makes things more difficult for them in terms of matching up to Venezuela's arsenal. Would you foresee that the latter's superiority (at least when we are strictly talking about air forces) is going to lead to instability in the region or possibly an arms race that might force Colombia to increase its spending?

Offline Gripen

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Re: Colombia buys 24 Israeli fighter jets
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2008, 03:51:12 AM »
Question: Whats going on between Colombia and Venezuela?

Offline tigershark

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Re: Colombia buys 24 Israeli fighter jets
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2008, 04:13:48 AM »
Israel's Kfir's saw a little action in 1982 war

I knew Colombia has a few I have a friend who lives there I get good info all the time.   He has posted some good pictures of Colombian Blackhawks some set up as gunships, pretty cool.

Didn't know Venezuela's Flankers had a little rush problems that's interesting and on brand new frames too?  I thought Russia been selling the AA-12, thought Peru bought a small handful and pictures got out and Chile voiced a little concern over them.  There setup up on the (3) Mig-29 SE models?  I knew more countries use there upgraded AA-10s more but thought Russia pushes the AA-12 as Russian Slammer?  So Algeria and Yemen don't have Russia's best missile am I getting the numbers confused isn't the AA-12 Adder there best and Alamo AA-10 second best?   I didn't think any of the long range missiles are in production the models that ranges of 100 miles or so?   I think the problem I have I only know the basic NATO numbers or names I think they may have more active.  Webmaster can you make up a simple list something long range must be used on there Mig-31s right?  Does Russia still use AA-6?   As you can tell I'm not strong on Russian missiles

I think if Ecuador slips more toward Venezuela Kfir's won't go through and the FARC holding the French people for so long I don't think Ecuador's going to get French if Ecuador's slides Chavez way.   Isn't that the reason for the French not selling to Venezuela in the first place?   Last I heard that Ecuador's Mirage F1-C/E were already in storage from lack of funds and only a handful of Kfir's are operational.  I use to know a guy from Ecuador and from Peru but both don't post anymore.   They were helpful but sadly just dropped off the net. 

I remember seeing it somewhere where Israel made 65 Kfir's or some high number being in held storage.  Sri Lanka bought (7) of them and one or two crashed and Sri Lanka's AF like the Mig-27s better and they cost less.  I think I read they get Mig-27s from Ukraine for just under $3 million per some commander wrote after one of the Tiger attacks that he wished he had more Mig-27s.

Webmaster I agree if Peru buys there most likely go Russian and the SMT route can't see them investing in the 9 remaining Mirage 2000-Ps they have.   Peru and the United States are doing a little better and if Ecuador slips really far left as in toward Chavez there's a very small chance that a American deal may happen.  A lot would have to happen before that could ever happen I realized that my money would on Russia.   Do you know Peru's Camisea gas fields are operationally and US Hunt company and others are involved?   Deposit not small and a billion plus dollar refinery 200 miles south of Lima being constructed might not mean anything but thought I'll throw it out there. 

« Last Edit: February 12, 2008, 01:28:48 AM by nonpilot »

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Re: Colombia buys 24 Israeli fighter jets
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2008, 04:57:40 AM »
They still make the Kfir? O_O

wow......lol


Interesting news, Steven, thanks!  :)

Read my post.

Question: Whats going on between Colombia and Venezuela?

Nothing, apart from some political bickering. Socialist-democratic elected president Chavez has a problem with Colombia's government and it's way of doing things. However, Colombia's government is on the side of Washington, and if I recall correctly was actually installed by Washington as a model of democracy for South America, while actually it is far from it. Now Chavez has nothing against the Colombian people, only its government, or at least its president, especially after the latest hostage crises. He would like to see Colombia (and other South American countries) to follow the example he set in Venezuela (not by Venezuela's military force, but by the countries' own population thru the democratic proces) of course such talk isn't well received by capitalist/autocrat governments, nor does Washington like this stuff going on in its backyard. It lost political control over Venezuela, but still needs it for oil, ouch. Anyway, this is all politics, so look it up, it ranges from nasty/dirty facts to purely propaganda/talk. I'm not a Chavez supporter or anything, I can understand his beliefs a bit though.

Very informative posts and excellent points guys!

I didn't know that Colombia already used Kfirs and it definitely makes sense now. Colombia's tight budget definitely makes things more difficult for them in terms of matching up to Venezuela's arsenal. Would you foresee that the latter's superiority (at least when we are strictly talking about air forces) is going to lead to instability in the region or possibly an arms race that might force Colombia to increase its spending?

Well, no, not because of Venezuela's spending on air force equipment directly, but by the differences in political views/aims of the governments in power. Venezuela has always had a powerful air force, it needs to replace all US types now, because of the US embargo. Thanks to rising oil/gas revenues it can buy new equipment, while many others can't or at least not the same extend because all their natural resources money goes to foreign countries. However, because of US concern over Venezuela's political posture, they might revise their plan to keep military aid limited to the war on drugs / counter insurgency, and start supplying serious hardware (it's possible though that they financed this Kfir order anyway). Then you'll have an arms race, because Venezuela will just buy more. I'm not an expert on Latin America, but Colombia would be foolish to try to match Venezuela in air force terms, as it would eat away what little social system there is. And I think it's more concerned about a possible insurgency aided politically/financially by Venezuela, rather than having to counter the FAV. And then there's Ecuador of course. I don't know if they would be backed by Venezuela when border clashes with Colombia start flaring up again, but I'd guess no.

Israel's Kfir's saw a little action in 1982 war

More recently is the Kfir action in the Peru-Ecuador clashes, and the use of them by Sri Lanka against the Tamil Tigers.

Aparently the rust is due to the humid/warm coastal (salt) climate, so yes on brand new airframes. General Dynamics tested for this before delivering the F-16. IAPO didn't, so they probably had to clean up and apply different coatings. I don't have details, may have been small, they're flying again now. I know about the MiG-29SE models, however I'm not sure if the 'live' Adders were actually delivered, but admittedly I was only considering Flanker users. Let's do the rest of the missile talk in the respective forum.

I think if Ecuador slips more toward Venezuela Kfir's won't go through and the FARC holding the French people for so long I don't think Ecuador's going to get French if Ecuador's slides Chavez way.   Isn't that the reason for the French not selling to Venezuela in the first place?   Last I heard that Ecuador's Mirage F1-C/E were already in storage from lack of funds and only a handful of Kfir's are operational.  I use to know a guy from Ecuador and from Peru but both don't post anymore.   They were helpful but sadly just dropped off the net. 

Uhm, I don't think French politics regarding Ecuador is in any way effected by the FARC hostage situation. French not selling to Venezuela was because of Washington pressure I suppose. Anyway Chavez found a good partner in Putin, and he happened to have top of the line 'cheap' helicopters and fighters. Anyway, Venezuela plans to buy more French helicopters, and frankly I haven't seen France opposing it yet?

I remember seeing it somewhere where Israel made 65 Kfir's or some high number being in held storage.  Sri Lanka bought (7) of them and one or two crashed and Sri Lanka's AF like the Mig-27s better and they cost less.  I think I read they get Mig-27s from Ukraine for just under $3 million per some commander wrote after one of the Tiger attacks that he wished he had more Mig-27s.
They bought some more though, I believe after early losses they had 14, not sure what happened more recently. But you're probably right about the MiG-27s, just compare the wage of an Israeli technician working for IAI, with a Ukrainian one working at a former state repair plant. Of course, the MiG-27 has a laser range finder which is far more useful than a multi-mode radar when striking rebel positions, even without it I can see the MiG-27 being a far better bombing platform than a Mirage III derivative. And I think they've support from HAL for the MiG-27s, whose rates are probably better than IAI's. It doesn't make the Kfirs less of an asset though for other duties.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2008, 04:41:46 PM by Webmaster »
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Offline tigershark

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Re: Colombia buys 24 Israeli fighter jets
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2008, 05:24:52 AM »
Quote
Webmaster
More recently is the Kfir action in the Colombia-Ecuador clashes
I think you mean Peruvian-Ecuadorian clash 1995 at least one kill maybe two. 

I forgot about the Venezuela looking at French helicopters your right the French would sell to either and/or both Venezuela and Ecuador. 

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Re: Colombia buys 24 Israeli fighter jets
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2008, 04:40:59 PM »
You're right, I made a mistake.
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