MILAVIA Forum - Military Aviation Discussion Forum

Author Topic: Countermeasures can be spectacular  (Read 14403 times)

Offline Webmaster

  • MILAVIA Webmaster
  • Administrator
  • General of Flight
  • *******
  • Posts: 2842
  • Country: nl
Re: Countermeasures can be spectacular
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2009, 02:55:25 PM »
Remember the Russkies always used the same missile with BOTH IR and Radar seekers,(one missile had radar, the other an IR seeker) fired in tandem.

Well, not always. And of course it also had a lot to do with the fact that they had either no look-down-shoot-down capability, or that the radar performed so poorly at distinguishing the target from surface clutter and in head-on engagements it just didn't garantee a kill.
  • Interests: Su-15, Su-27, Tu-22, Tornado, RNLAF
Niels Hillebrand
MILAVIA Webmaster

Offline shawn a

  • Hero of Flight
  • ******
  • Posts: 898
  • Country: us
Re: Countermeasures can be spectacular
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2009, 09:34:05 PM »
Niels, At Nellis next week, I'll ask about laser jammers. They don't jam lasers, they jam IR missiles.
I think the Russian technique of using the same missile airframe with both radar and IR seekers was an ingenious 'belt AND suspenders" approach. I'm talking about AAMs here, carried on fighters and interceptors. As far as Manpads go, I think the Igla uses UV sensors too.
I wish I could take photos like these. Only once at Miramar did I see Fat Albert come straight at the crowd during the Twilight show with no lights on and then it fired it's flares off!  Crowd went nuts!

Offline shawn a

  • Hero of Flight
  • ******
  • Posts: 898
  • Country: us
Re: Countermeasures can be spectacular
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2009, 08:47:08 AM »
Niels, I've got a photo of the laser jammer on the Osprey, and I'll send it with some more discs of shows.
The pilot said it does not broadcast (or sweep the sky with a wideangle laser spray), but detects the missile, and targets it with it's laser and jams the seeker. I forgot to ask if it can handle multiple targets simultaneously.

Offline Webmaster

  • MILAVIA Webmaster
  • Administrator
  • General of Flight
  • *******
  • Posts: 2842
  • Country: nl
Re: Countermeasures can be spectacular
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2009, 12:25:27 PM »
Ah, I see what you mean now, defeating IR threats using a laser beam... I thought you meant a jammer to deny the enemy from 'lasing' you. Ma bad.

I forgot to ask if it can handle multiple targets simultaneously.

Depends on how you define simultaneously, I suppose. It only has one laser turret afaik. But I'm sure the system will prioritize threats picked up by its sensors, it can be integrated with other warning sensors, and just have the laser defeat them accordingly. I suppose, it doesn't take long for it to jam the IR seeker enough for it to lose lock-on.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 12:39:36 PM by FF Admin »
  • Interests: Su-15, Su-27, Tu-22, Tornado, RNLAF
Niels Hillebrand
MILAVIA Webmaster

Offline shawn a

  • Hero of Flight
  • ******
  • Posts: 898
  • Country: us
Re: Countermeasures can be spectacular
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2009, 03:24:21 AM »
Here's a still of the jammer in closed position.

Offline RecceJet

  • Global Moderator
  • Fighter Ace
  • *******
  • Posts: 404
  • Country: au
Re: Countermeasures can be spectacular
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2009, 03:47:34 AM »
The AN/AAQ-24 Directional Infrared Countermeasures (DIRCM)

Quote
AN/AAQ-24 NEMESIS DIRCM benefits

    * Simultaneously tracks and defeats threats in clutter environments
    * Fast, accurate threat detection and simultaneous jamming in all current IR threat Bands (I, II and IV)
    * Counters all fielded IR missile threats using a single generic jam waveform
    * All-weather, all-altitude operation
    * Complete end-to-end self-testing features reduce life-cycle maintenance
    * Compatible with existing support facilities


Quote
The AN/AAQ-24 system is a directed infrared countermeasure (DIRCM) system. It consists of a missile warning system (AN/AAR-54), an integration unit, a processor, and laser turrets (Small Laser Targeting Assembly, SLTA). Early versions used an arc lamp to generate the jamming signal. Newer versions produced by NGC use diode based pump systems are known by the GUARDIAN name, and will likely be fitted to many commercial carriers in the near future pending the completion of many tests on the viablility of such options.

It will be installed on C-17 Globemaster III, MC-130, CV-22, and the CH-53E Super Stallion. The system is also the basis for the Northrop Grumman Guardian system marketed for commercial aircraft.

Global Security page
Northrop Grumman page
Wikipedia page

Offline shawn a

  • Hero of Flight
  • ******
  • Posts: 898
  • Country: us
Re: Countermeasures can be spectacular
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2009, 05:47:56 AM »
Just a thought here, do you think the Russkies flares make so much smoke so they can act as an optical jamming source as well as IR?
If you have it, look at pages 58-59 of Air Forces Monthly Nov. '09 issue. An incredibly stunning shot of IR flares. (Sadly, just before a tragic accident)

Offline Webmaster

  • MILAVIA Webmaster
  • Administrator
  • General of Flight
  • *******
  • Posts: 2842
  • Country: nl
Re: Countermeasures can be spectacular
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2009, 03:10:13 PM »
Interesting thought. I have no idea if that is really the case or that it's just because smoke doesn't really matter when you are dropping flares, making your presence known anyway. The Russians were behind on developing smokeless rocket and jet engines... so maybe it is the same with flares.  But yes, why not have a smokescreen, it works for tanks against optical guided missiles. Unfortunately even the thickest Russian aircraft books rarely go into depth on the actual function of subsystems, it's mostly technical specs, but I will see if I can find anything.
  • Interests: Su-15, Su-27, Tu-22, Tornado, RNLAF
Niels Hillebrand
MILAVIA Webmaster

Offline F-111 C/C

  • Hero of Flight
  • ******
  • Posts: 634
  • Country: us
Re: Countermeasures can be spectacular
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2009, 04:07:33 AM »
The MiG-29 looks like it smokes enough to 'blind' IR!
Wars are won by carrying the 'heavy iron' downtown!

Offline Webmaster

  • MILAVIA Webmaster
  • Administrator
  • General of Flight
  • *******
  • Posts: 2842
  • Country: nl
Re: Countermeasures can be spectacular
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2009, 04:14:09 AM »
Not to track moving aerial targets, at least I haven't read about it yet, anti-air missiles don't 'ride a beam'. Laser doesn't detect in itself, so even if you use laser you need something like IR, TV, Radar or an operator to use it for tracking.
  • Interests: Su-15, Su-27, Tu-22, Tornado, RNLAF
Niels Hillebrand
MILAVIA Webmaster

Offline RecceJet

  • Global Moderator
  • Fighter Ace
  • *******
  • Posts: 404
  • Country: au
Re: Countermeasures can be spectacular
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2009, 11:17:33 AM »
The old Rapier system also has a means of directing the missile optically. Looks like older technology like this is actually still quite useful.

 



AVIATION TOP 100 - www.avitop.com click to vote for MILAVIA