MILAVIA Forum
Military Aviation => Military Aircraft => Topic started by: alyster on November 08, 2007, 12:02:08 PM
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Gripen is Sweedish made aircraft, grand achivement of Swedis company SAAB. Viggen is very proud of it. F-14 was US made, americans were proud of it, just like french are proud of their Mirages. Nothing new. However yesterday I was reading an intresting book. It quoted Robert Reich's Work of Nations and stated that from $20 000 Pontiac Le Mans 6000 goes to South Korea, 3500 to Japan 1500 to Germany 800 to Taiwan, Singapour and smaller Japanese contractors and 600 to UK. So General Motors is left with 8000 dollars. So where is this car made?
Simple question about fighters? Can we or can we not talk about fighter plane's national identity/belonging?
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Well, I'd say it has to be developed/designed in the country, who cares where all the parts come from or where it is produced.
Actually, regarding car industry, the BMW X3 wasn't even designed by BMW itself.
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ohh,, car bit extra
Pontiac GTO (new one) based on Holden Monaro (AUSTRALIAN)
Pontiac G8 (or something like that) based on Holden Commodore (AUSTRALIAN)
Vauxhall Monaro based on Holden Monaro (AUSTRALIAN)
So.. is the Airbus A380 French, even though bits of it are built in Spain, Germany, UK and a whole lot of other places???
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Is the F-16 American when the Wings are built in Belgium, and everything else is manufactured in a host of other places?
I think i'd agree with Webby on this one. It's the designer.
And alyster, btw, this is one of the most interesting questions i've ever come across...
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Ok so then the first versions of Su-9 were German then? :o Because they were designed in Germany ;D Is Kfir french or israeli then? Or FS-X?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/50/Sukhoi_Su-9_K.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/82/Messerschmitt_Me_262_Schwable.jpg/800px-Messerschmitt_Me_262_Schwable.jpg)
And alyster, btw, this is one of the most interesting questions i've ever come across...
Then you may also be interested in Jihad vs. McWorld
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I can simply answer your question by stating that its the country that develops and pays for the aircraft to be built in the first place. :)
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So, who developed and bulit the Eurofighter? You cant exactly call it a British plane, or a Spanish plane, German, Italian, etc etc
and the F-35?
Didnt some of the countries give money to the development program?
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Eurofighter... another expentsive way for eurointegration. There's bunch of integration things: joint battle groups, EU financed multinational camps, conferences, forums and even schools. A380 is another example to my mind of eurointegration.
Things are more complicated with the F-35. I was also wondering whose plane the new "Russian" 5th generation fighter will be if India joins the development. :-\
Also FS-X ... didn't Japan pay something to the US for the plane and do some changes on it? Is the plane japanese now?
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They wouldn't have been any cheaper or (more) successful if they wouldn't have been EU collaborations. If Germany or the UK would both have their own Fighter 2000 programs, they would have never survived. I wouldn't say A380 is an example of eurointegration, but Airbus is, so it's a product of it. I'm proud as an European that it is European and not American, but maybe that's partly because I am bored of the Boeing-look.
F-35: since the US is putting most money in it, will buy most, main contractor is US, and overall design and initiative is US... it's still American in my book.
The Kfir may be based on the Mirage design, but it's the Israelis who put the Mirage design and J79 together, and built a new fighter out of that on their own initiative with their own money and industry. So that makes it Israeli, but its score on the "national belongings list" is not as high as the Merkava MBT for example.
Let's see, a list of things that influence this, in some order of importance:
- designer or 'brand'
- developing company
- initiative taker (can be supplier or client)
- main contractor (supplier)
- development funds source
- main/dominant operator
- degree of customization
- airframe production/assembly share
- total production share
Additionally, the degree of innovation, originality, importance and successfulness plays a big part in how strong the feeling of belonging/pride is, IMO.
But I have to admit, it's funny to see how a ripped-off design gets a higher mark or feeling of national belonging than a licensed design, developed into something unique.
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Haha. True that is, Master Webby.
I know that for a fact, with the A-4SU being listed as a totally separate plane from the A-4. Does incite some patriotic pride, ja?
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I don't agree with Webby. If we count in who produces how much of them or who uses how much of them, then Flankler's score as Russian fighter would fall due to China would claim its share.
Also I do view Kfir as not Israeli plane, although I'm not sure it's french either. That's why I asked if we can talk about national belonging at all. The plane is basically a Mirage with a new engine and few extra gadgets. The engine shouldn't be Israeli made either. Just that Israeli Air Force happens to use this plane. And instead of buying it they just built it themselves (well because they were denied the buying deals)
And still FS-X is an open question ???
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I put those at the bottom for a reason... but they do weigh in, especially once you start considering different versions or variants. The Su-30MKI would have been a lot less Indian than now, if HAL wouldn't assemble/produce them and the IAF would only operate 24 of them, despite being tailored for and funded by India.
If the Kfir is not Israeli, it's... nothing? Without Israel's industry ability and IDF/AF need for something like the Mirage it wouldn't have existed, that makes it more Israeli than French.
FS-X in the F-2 is definately Japanese belonging, but because it's co-developed/co-produced it's just not as strong as the Zero for example, or the FS-X could have been.
I think we can talk about a 'degree of national belonging', regardless of its true origins of design or parts. It's just not black and white. I'm not sure fighters can have a national identity, but they are surely part of the national identity of a country. But they can belong to a country's identity, even though its origin is from a different country.
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I belive the Israeli orderd a couple of Mirage 5, but before they where deliverd, President De Guille put the embargo in place. Israeli spies or engeneers managed get their hands on the bluprints somehow. From there they built the Neshir (i think it was called), im just guessing now that Kfir is a devient/developmet from this aircraft.
So it would make Kfir it Israeli. :)
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In my opinion, countries (their designers) have "signatures" and they are very clear in planes. Look at Russian tails, they have that cut on top, very difficutl to find elsewhere :)
Looks at F-15, F-22, they keep some similiarity. Why talk about French designs then?It is obvious.
Each country has something particular, and they print that in their planes.
Just my 2 C ;)
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Singapore and Israel have one thing in common. And that's why we work so closely all the time.
We both love to modify stuff. Kfir, A-4SU. Tanks. Guns. Everything. I think fusion is a signature for Israel. By the way, since we're talking about Israel, I couldn't find that thread that was talking about thins, but Singapore and Israel are both MAJOR players in the JSF program. We just might not get the plane itself...
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Sorry but what are the minor players then? If you call non-contributing "security cooperation partner" major with capital letters?
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So my conclusion: a plane although several countries may take part of the development in various ways and its different parts may be made in different countries world wide "belongs" to the country who's company puts all the parts together. The very same company doesn't even have to take part in major development programs(like in case of Kfir or FS-X or many more). The company itself usually belongs to share holders from across the world, the company has factories world wide and so on. A major company itself by its nature loses national identity. GM doesn't locate in the US, it's in the cyber world, from where all the decisions and info runs from America to Europe to Asia etc. So as absurd as it may seem, planes for some reason do have national identity. ??? :-\ (I'm confuesed too now)
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Sorry Webby-
Engineering?
Alsyter-
Um, Kfir is the same as FSX?
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FS-X or F-2(?) is japanese version of F-16. Kfir is israeli copy of Mirage.
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the Mitsubishi authorised copy enlargement of F-16 is the F-2 ;)
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No, i think it's quite different, since the Kfir is modified almost beyond recognition. You can, of course see the basic Mirage 2000 frame, but otherwise... The F-2 is something like a pure copy?
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Beyond recognition? They put on a new engine and for that little bit changed the rear fuselage. To call Kfir a new plane is like to call F-16I and F-15I a new plane.
Wiki brings out some differnces between F-2 and F-16 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_F-2)