Popularity of Lockheed Martin's F-16 Makes Its F-35 Stealth Jet a Tough Sell

[tigershark]

Downside of Dominance?
Popularity of Lockheed Martin's F-16 Makes Its F-35 Stealth Jet a Tough Sell

By Michael S. Rosenwald
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, December 17, 2007; Page D01

FORT WORTH -- Here in Hangar 8, three shifts of Lockheed Martin technicians assemble F-16s, one of the most powerful and widely used fighter jets in history. They work tediously by hand -- bolt by bolt, wire by wire -- turning the plane's belly into a colorful work of industrial art later covered by 18,000 pounds of aluminum. The saying around here: Kick the tire, light the fire and then watch the thing zoom away.

F-16s used to be built next door in a mile-long factory that employees travel through on Schwinn bicycles. Now Lockheed is using that space to develop the F-35 stealth fighter jet, including a version that can land vertically. That Lockheed is juggling two of the world's most feared fighters illustrates its dominance in the industry and the importance of fighters for Lockheed's business. The F-16 has consistently been one of the Bethesda firm's top three revenue-generating products in the past decade.

I think for some countries who don't plan to go up against advance SAM systems or fight modern Flankers I think the F-16 still has a place.   I wish the US Air Force would place another order for 40 to 60 Block-50/52 because the current Vipers hours are getting used up at an alarming rate.   I do think the US Navy did the right thing to get the SuperHornet push through to fill a void waiting the JSF, it's just too many years in between.   

Link for above
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/16/AR2007121601522.html

[valkyrian]

I believe the viper is a brilliant design and has many years to cover. It is still powerful and light and very agile, and i bet it will be the yardstick against all the other fighters will be compared...

The navy probably did well, but MDD didn't  do well.

[tigershark]

It's crazy but the F-16 is one of those aircraft who I take for granted but shouldn't.  In the next ten years of service it will take over the most successful fighter of all time away from the famous Mig-21.   I always felt there should have been an added design between the F-14 and he F/A-18 for the US Navy.

[Webmaster]

With even the upgrades on the F-16 being conceived as a threat to the F-35, using up F-35 money, it's unlikely new F-16s will be ordered by the USAF. LM did a great job at offering the latest tech on the F-16 for export customer, even beyond the US needs. You can see that the lack of upgrades to protect a new fighter also happened with the F-15, only now that the F-22 introduction is well underway, upgrades are finally funded, because they won't get enough F-22s. Boeing also did great by taking the F-15E and turning it into an attractive proposition for allies looking for something more capable than the F-16, but not to the same extent as LM did with the F-16.

One argument provided in the article to favor the F-16 as ally is that of cooperation and compatability with the US. But I'm not sure how that works out for all the customers who have been buying the F-16 in the last decade or so. They'll be flying non-stealth F-16s long after the US and others have gone stealthy. And the bulky, heavier, slower 'tricked out' F-16, might have trouble keeping up. Now, how will this argument work out then, I am not sure. I'd say, if you're shopping now, and the F-35 is out of reach, then only select the F-16 for its quality/price compared to others or as interim. But you might as well go for any other NATO compatible fighter.

My point, even if F-16 production lines would have closed, the F-35 would still have a hard time.

@nonpilot
I think it still has to surpass the F-4 as well...? Although in the sense that today's fleets have become smaller, I think the F-16 success has already passed both the F-4 and MiG-21. The F-35's time still has to come, you never know, another Cold War, the arms race in the middle-east, possible arms race in Asia with US as main supplier, and it might easily become the winner they envisage it to become.

@ Valkyrian
Why didn't MDD do well? Because it merged with Boeing?

[Raptor]

MDD did very well in my opinion. Though it would have been interesting to see Boeing and Lockheed merge. And Sikorsky could join the gang.

I have no doubt the F-35 will eventually take it's place in the market, but the F-16 has a pretty good foothold, and it might take some time before the F-35 actually becomes overly popular...

[valkyrian]

@ Webby

Do you consider the Super bag as a succesfull design in comparison with the C/D Hornet?

Better range : questionable....just bcz has more fuel doesn't mean it go further. It is also heavier.
Better Dogfighter? compared to the C/D Hornet? No way
Better payload ? Yes bcz of the extra wing area

I am sure you all have heard that the SH has several performance penalties.

In contrast every new F-16 version prooves to be excellent.

[Webmaster]

No, but I'd blame that on the Navy for not requiring higher specs. Plus carrier borne means higher demands on structure and gear, which means more weight. Likewise, you'll see that the F-35C won't perform as well as the F-35A.

F-15E is a great MDD/Boeing product though.

It's just that these two are 'niche' products, they did well there.

MDD/Boeing can't compete with the F-16 anymore, because they were not meant to after they lost the LFI competition. But I think they did do well despite of that.

But if you say they should have been able to secure more market with a more revolutionary or conventional Hornet make-over in order to be more successful, or have a more conventional X-32 to win the JSF competition, I agree with you that the didn't do as good as LM.

[valkyrian]

In the future a new American Domestic Industry war will take place, as Boeing will try to steal the market from the F-35. But i don't think that the SH will stand a chance...

The large production scale of the F-35 will press the unit cost. How many SH will be built? About a 1000 i think far from what the F-35 is expected. It will be a very interesting competition....

[Raptor]

Any of you of the opinion that the F-35 will one day have the popularity that the F-16 has?

[tigershark]

Yes but not in numbers because less would be needed because of different weapon systems and platforms being used.   I think the only way for the numbers to go anywhere near the current Vipers numbers would be some kind of new "Cold War' or maybe a huge Chinese expansion other then that less are needed. 

[Webmaster]

I agree with nonpilot, it's popularity will be reflected in market share as opposed to production numbers.

[Raptor]

I meant as in, as widely exported and used. Basically what Webby and nonpilot have said...

But won't the F-35 cost more and also be slightly more "secret" than the F-16. Wouldn't this mean that some countries might not get it? The F-16 has been used for a lot of purposes already, and it's the first name that pops to mind when you ask a singaporean about "fighter-jet" the F-35 is still known as "the wierd JSF plane at last year's asian aerospace" I think it would take quite some time before the F-35 gains enough popularity for it to be obvious. Meanwhile, technology will advance way beyond it...