MILAVIA Forum - Military Aviation Discussion Forum

Author Topic: Italy grapples with funding dilemma over Tranche 3 Eurofighters  (Read 12616 times)

Offline tigershark

  • News Editor
  • General of Flight
  • *******
  • Posts: 2025
Italy grapples with funding dilemma over Tranche 3 Eurofighters
« on: October 11, 2007, 12:52:41 AM »
Quote: The Italian government has moved to guarantee its funding for the Eurofighter Typhoon for the next five years as part of a new draft budget request for 2008, but has stopped short of committing itself to the programme's Tranche 3 production phase amid cost concerns.

Tech wise what does what does Tranche-3 bring to the table over Tranche-2, and is it worth it?   Can Italian government not pick up the Tranche-3 options or is this something as a partner there expected to do?   There leased F-16s must be getting a little old and if fact one of them crash last week or the week before.   

Link to story I found
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/10/08/217866/italy-grapples-with-funding-dilemma-over-tranche-3-eurofighters.html 

Offline Webmaster

  • MILAVIA Webmaster
  • Administrator
  • General of Flight
  • *******
  • Posts: 2842
  • Country: nl
Re: Italy grapples with funding dilemma over Tranche 3 Eurofighters
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2007, 01:26:07 AM »
Basically full air-to-ground capability and full DASS. Italy plans to use it predominantly as an air defense fighter, with the Tornado/AMX and ultimately the JSF as mud mover. As a partner they are committed to buying X aircraft, I don't know if also the specific Tranche is totally fixed, I would think so, how else would its development be financed. So they'd probably have to renegotiate with the other partners, which will be difficult. I think ultimately it has no choice other than commit to it. But I'd be more worried about what happens if they don't go for the Tranche 3, first because of the implications for the others nations, second because of the capability gap which might arrise between Tornado/AMX out of service date and JSF in-service, which is still slipping. But you'll end up having to upgrade your existing fleet to that standard anyway, so getting Tranche 2 instead of 3, probably isn't the best economical solution long term.
I don't think it's really a dilemma, but just an overall shortage of funding in this period, which seems fundamental to Western countries in the post-Cold War world. Insufficient funding can easily result in delays, which ultimately means more costs. But if you don't have the cash, there isn't really anything you can do about it without cutting costs elsewhere in the defence organization, or basically let your state budget deficit grow... possible for African countries, but not an option for democracies, unless the perceived threat become 10x higher.
Not ordering this last Tranche is basically like pulling out, way too late. It will be costly, but then again, they are sunk costs, start looking at what you can do with the freed up funds (nothing in this case, as there are none).

The cost concerns might be alleviated by taking away uncertainty regarding final configuration and schedule, and if that doesn't help scrapping plans, such as AESA CAPTOR and HMS for now, and have as an option, instead of standard fit. I'm sure Spain and Germany would be interested to hear about cost savings, only the RAF might complain about the missed capability and long term costs of introducing these capabilities later on.

If only an additional export customer could be found for the Typhoon by the Eurofighter consortium, as opposed to UK MOD / BAE, then the European countries can stop worrying about having to procure a basically too high a number of EFs. That will free up funds for the remainder of the Tranche 3 aircraft to be properly financed. But it's eating up your potential return from the export program, luckily most major aerospace companies involved are doing good.

Don't you just love aircraft development programs, with in particular these multi-nation projects.  ;D
  • Interests: Su-15, Su-27, Tu-22, Tornado, RNLAF
Niels Hillebrand
MILAVIA Webmaster

Offline Raptor

  • General of Flight
  • *******
  • Posts: 1388
  • Country: sg
  • What's the next big thing?
Re: Italy grapples with funding dilemma over Tranche 3 Eurofighters
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2007, 04:36:12 AM »
That's way over my head. By the way, i never bothered to find out, what happens when a leased fighter crashes?
-JCLim

Offline WRCKid

  • Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 239
  • Country: us
Re: Italy grapples with funding dilemma over Tranche 3 Eurofighters
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2007, 05:40:21 PM »
How long do they have to make up their minds whether the aircraft will be purchased or not? I've always been curious about that, the reason why I ask is because of the UK for example, they leased their 4 (5 can't remember) C-17's couple of months later they decided to purchase, I guess all would depend of the contract...but who provides their maintenance?


Sorry don't mean to steal and bring your post of topic nonpilot

Offline tigershark

  • News Editor
  • General of Flight
  • *******
  • Posts: 2025
Re: Italy grapples with funding dilemma over Tranche 3 Eurofighters
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2007, 08:41:36 PM »
No problem maintenance is usually carried out by the maker but outside companies can provide such services.   It also depends on the level of maintenance needed to be done.   For example some air force support/ground crews can take out an jet engine and perform basic support but complete overhauls might need to be sent back to the engine or aircraft producer/maker.  Hope that helps.

Offline Raptor

  • General of Flight
  • *******
  • Posts: 1388
  • Country: sg
  • What's the next big thing?
Re: Italy grapples with funding dilemma over Tranche 3 Eurofighters
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2007, 05:00:23 AM »
I thought most aircraft, such as F-16s and C-130s, all around the world-maintenance is done by small companies? So the big companies don't have to dedicate so much resources to that.
-JCLim

Offline tigershark

  • News Editor
  • General of Flight
  • *******
  • Posts: 2025
Re: Italy grapples with funding dilemma over Tranche 3 Eurofighters
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2007, 04:00:03 PM »
I would think not because there military aircraft in most case only military personnel can work on military aircraft.  I think engines or maybe radar's might be sent off site but even then air force personnel does the bulk of the work.   There are examples of the other take Kuwait who out sources most of the air force maintenance to Pakistan.    There are others as well take the Saudi's who do some for themselves but the bulk falls on American, British, and yes good old trust worthy Pakistan  , for there maintenance needs.   Makes you think a little right?   
I am not 100 percent sure if Pakistan personnel touch Kuwaiti F/A-18s and I'm pretty sure they don't service American supplied F-15s but maybe webmaster knows better.  General maintenance, refueling, weapons, base storage, directly supporting other personnel who are allowed to directly work on F-15/18s, I believe the do.   I find that troubling but in general I find Pakistan troubling so go figure.   

Offline Webmaster

  • MILAVIA Webmaster
  • Administrator
  • General of Flight
  • *******
  • Posts: 2842
  • Country: nl
Re: Italy grapples with funding dilemma over Tranche 3 Eurofighters
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2007, 05:39:06 PM »
There are several levels in maintenance, but at each level almost all options are possible. Most air forces have dedicated maintenance centers to do the major maintenance sometimes even complete overhauls and upgrades, they employ both military and civilian personel. They are more and more being commercialised. Others outsource it partly or completely to certified companies, which can be major airlines or specialised companies. In some cases the original supplier does all the work, with lots of subcontracts. Some air forces even outsourced non-combat flight line operations to be done by civilian companies, ever seen pictures of 'blue suits' loading up the Apache with 2.75inch rockets?

There's a difference in servicing an aircraft, taking its radar apart, or completely overhaul it. It all depends on the certification and all the rules and regulations concerning it.

Sure, Pakistani's can fuel, change oil, lubricate parts, and check the tire pressure of the Hornets. If trained and certified they can do more. But realisticly, I think it's about the Kuwaiti L-100 fleet, which are civilian C-130s...

This reminds me, I still have to reply that F-16 mechanic, explaining that I don't own any F-16s, so there's little work for him here once he's done servicing my car.  Unless he can build me a F-16 for $1000,- ;)
« Last Edit: December 15, 2007, 05:45:22 PM by Webmaster »
  • Interests: Su-15, Su-27, Tu-22, Tornado, RNLAF
Niels Hillebrand
MILAVIA Webmaster

Offline Webmaster

  • MILAVIA Webmaster
  • Administrator
  • General of Flight
  • *******
  • Posts: 2842
  • Country: nl
Re: Italy grapples with funding dilemma over Tranche 3 Eurofighters
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2007, 05:57:15 PM »
How long do they have to make up their minds whether the aircraft will be purchased or not? I've always been curious about that, the reason why I ask is because of the UK for example, they leased their 4 (5 can't remember) C-17's couple of months later they decided to purchase, I guess all would depend of the contract...but who provides their maintenance?


Sorry don't mean to steal and bring your post of topic nonpilot

It depends on value, number of decision makers, involved bodies, contract complexity, law and regulations, politics, there's so much more. Buying C-17s "off-the-shelf" or in this case signing a purchase contract when the lease period is over, takes of course less time than making funding decisions on development and production of a new aircraft, let alone when there's beyond 5 times as many to buy and the requirement is less than obvious and there's substantial risk involved.

Unless of course Boeing would have had other plans for the off-lease aircraft, but since the production line is still open, and Boeing wants to keep it open, there's no problem there either. So there's only the funding issue, which because it prob stays within budget doesn't get beyond the MOD decision makers. However, don't be fooled, they've probably explored this options from before the lease contract in 2004.
  • Interests: Su-15, Su-27, Tu-22, Tornado, RNLAF
Niels Hillebrand
MILAVIA Webmaster

Offline Raptor

  • General of Flight
  • *******
  • Posts: 1388
  • Country: sg
  • What's the next big thing?
Re: Italy grapples with funding dilemma over Tranche 3 Eurofighters
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2007, 09:02:45 AM »
About the maintainence thing. Some Delthingamajiggy company does the F-16s and C-130 in SG. The weapons, avionics, etc are obviously handled by the RSAF, but airframe and engine? Radar modifications?
-JCLim

 



AVIATION TOP 100 - www.avitop.com click to vote for MILAVIA