MILAVIA Forum
Military Aviation => Military Aircraft => Topic started by: alyster on January 07, 2007, 05:07:47 AM
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http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/01/06/china.jet.reut/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/01/06/china.jet.reut/index.html)
BEIJING, China (Reuters) -- China has unveiled its Jian-10 multi-role indigenous fighter jet, marking a "historic leap forward" and narrowing a technological gap with major military powers, state media said on Saturday.
China is the fourth country in the world capable of developing its own advanced fighter aircraft, engines and air-to-air missiles, the People's Daily, the mouthpiece of the Communist Party, said in a front-page story.
The newspaper did not identify the three other countries, but defense analysts said it was apparently referring to the United States, Russia and France.
"The Jian-10 is superior to the SU-27 but inferior to the SU-30," a military source who spoke on condition of anonymity told Reuters, referring to Russia's Sukhoi fighter jets.
A five-minute video was shown to Chinese reporters in Beijing on Friday, revealing how the fighter takes off, lands, fires missiles and flies in formation, the official Xinhua news agency said. Foreign journalists were barred from the news conference.
The Beijing Daily, the Guangming Daily, the Farmers' Daily and Internet portals splashed pictures of fighters taking off and pilots marching past a row of fighters.
"It has increasingly become apparent the J-10 has the potential of becoming one of the most significant fighters in the next few decades," www.globalsecurity.org said on its Web site.
But Xinhua quoted unnamed military experts as saying the Jian-10 cannot match the performance of fourth-generation U.S. fighter jets, but its basic design and indigenous equipment are comparable to those of mainstream fighter aircraft in the West.
As many as 300 Jian-10 may be produced, sinodefence.com said.
The Jian-10 first flew in 1998 and entered the PLA Air Force service in 2003, sinodefence.com said, adding that the single-seat and twin-seat trainer are "all-weather, high-performance multi-role fighter aircraft capable of both air-to-air and air-to-ground roles".
"(It) marks a breakthrough in China's research and development of heavy fighter aircraft," Liu Gaozhuo, executive commander in chief of the Jian-10 program, told Xinhua.
According to China's defense-policy paper released last December, the air force is reducing the number of combat aircraft, giving priority to the development of new fighters as well as air and missile defense weapons.
The China Aviation Industry Corp. I, China's leading aircraft manufacturer, provided the armed forces with 90 percent of its airborne weapons.
AVIC I has produced 15,000 aircraft, 50,000 aero-engines and more than 10,000 missiles. Company sales rose for the sixth straight year last year, hitting 80 billion yuan ($10.3 billion), up 15.7 percent. Profits surged 42 percent to 3 billion yuan.
China has claimed Taiwan as its own since their split in 1949 amid civil war and vowed to attack the self-ruled democratic island if it formally declares independence.
The United States and Japan are to discuss in February joint plans for their troops to deal with a potential stand-off between China and Taiwan, Japanese media said.
Any comments? Or has webmaster already ordered himself the 301st J-10 as a traial for his online shop?
Anyhow what do you think are the chances for the exports with this plane? Pakistan? Iran?
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It's looks like the C&C Generals MiGs. Hmmm. I think most likely south-east asian countries excluding yours truly.
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the plane will most probably poorly built..
i read somewhere that a country ordered ships to be built in China, and after they were behind schedule and over the budget, the ships were so poorly built that the country had to dry dock them for extensive repairs, wich cost more money
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That's china for you. But did you hear about their super-suspension bridge. Not drifting here, talking about quality of Chinese built things. It held up very well. Much better than a certain USA bridge...
Moving on... No, the China communist effect is wearing off fast. Thus said, the quality of their planes, among other things, should be shooting up, so we should not be too quick to judge the J-10, should we now?
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Pakistan is seriously thinking about acquiring the J-10. Talks are underway. With the Pak-Chino FC-1/JF-17, there's a good possibility of success. But I think Russia sells the engines only for domestic use by China, so unless China can successfully develop an alternative powerplant for it, the deal depends on the Russians.
Iran is under UN arms embargo at the moment I think?
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Last I know only US embargos Iran. Maybe EU also. Russia just sold them anti air missile systems. Altough UN Security Council is talking about the embargo. But then again we're back to the old veto rights, where Russia and China will see first if they'd like to sell anything or not to Iran.
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So is the J-10 in service yet?
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About the J-10 I found this but I'm not sure how many aircraft are in a Chinese regiment? I also read on on other forums that the J-10s are beating in training/mock combat both Su-30s and J-11B (Chinese produced Flanker). For myself and I think many others China needs to let this fighter be seen in air shows. There are many unanswered questions about what it can really do and what's under the hood. I wonder what the radar can do? How many targets can it lock on at once, range, etc.
August 2004: The first J-10 regiment was formed in the PLAAF 44th Air Division based at Mengzi AFB, Yunnan Province.
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/j10history.asp
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/j10.asp
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Another J-10 story
http://www.aviapedia.com/news/chengdu-aircraft-industry-corporation-introduce-j-10-20070122
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Thank you Nonpilot :)
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Israelis had a lot to do with the J-10 project. I think not too long ago, the Israelis, in an effort to better their relationship with China, aided the Chinese in building a fighter. And this is the result - sort of a cross between and F-16 and Typhoon.
So, it may be safe to say that China would not have this fighter if it were not for the Israelis. It doesn't matter anyway, I don't think it will have the capability of going against fighters like the Typhoon, Gripen and Raptor, pilot skills being equal.
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Correct, Israeli Aircraft Industries was working on the Lavi (young lion) aircraft in the 80s, but the project didn't get enough funding so it stopped. I think there were two or three prototype aircraft built.
Israel intended them in a Close Air Support (CAS) role, but the Chinese seem to want to push them into some kind of interceptor role.
This sharing of technology with China may have been influenced by how the US barred Israel from selling the Phalcon system to the Chinese.
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I heard it would have very good air to air capabilities, similar, but don't know if as good as, the Typhoon. Or at least that's what they pretend to do
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I highly doubt the J-10 is anywhere near the Typhoon's incredible capabilities. And I'm glad the US barred the Israelis from selling, or for that matter, I would bar any kikd of hi-tech military equipment going to China. They're still Communists, remember?
Remember when England have the Soviets the Ghost jet engine as a gesture of goodwill? Well, what did the Soviets do? They copied the engine and installed it in their Mig-15.
We ought to learn from history. I'm not knocking the Chinese, I just don't trust their government and their intentions - they still want Taiwan and they'll use force if they have to.
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I highly doubt the J-10 is anywhere near the Typhoon's incredible capabilities. And I'm glad the US barred the Israelis from selling, or for that matter, I would bar any kikd of hi-tech military equipment going to China. They're still Communists, remember?
Remember when England have the Soviets the Ghost jet engine as a gesture of goodwill? Well, what did the Soviets do? They copied the engine and installed it in their Mig-15.
We ought to learn from history. I'm not knocking the Chinese, I just don't trust their government and their intentions - they still want Taiwan and they'll use force if they have to.
what on hell where supposed to do with it??
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If the PLAAF commander says it is better than the J-11 (which is a license built standard Su-27) but not as good as the Su-30MKK, then I would say it is not as good as or better than the Typhoon for sure. Just because it looks like it, some people think it is equal.
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Well, I heards that they have beaten even the -30MKI.
Now, we should know more about the electronics system and radar to know who has more possibilities, but it is very hard to get right info on this, isn't it?
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That's right you heard, but there's no proof. They're all claims made by the Chinese government. If I were a Typhoon pilot, I would probably just yawn and be on my way.
There is proof of a British pilot in a Typhoon who shot down 2 F-15C Eagles in a mock dogfight. He was even shocked that he took on both Eagles.
But there still is no proof that even the Su-30Mk can take on the Eagle. Exercise Cope India didn't prove anything - They gave all the advantages to India and not the US Eagle drivers. But that's another topic which I think is here already under Flanker vs. Eagle.
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ok, ok whatever.
Now, it has quite a powerful engine, being that the one on the Su-27. I think it is a good source of power for a relatively small airplane? Thoughts on this?
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Just like the F-16 has one engine from the F-15 Eagle. Doesn't mean the F-16 is the better fighter. It just means it shares the same engine as the Eagle.
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well yea there are more things that u have to considere that make a plane a good fighter like new weapons, avionics, maneurability and my fav the speed....etc >:D >:D >:D
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To early to compared to a 4th ++ generation fighter like the EF2000 and to date Chinese haven't produced anything themselves along these lines in aviation. Both the JF-17/FC-1 and the J-10 seem advance and show skills built into the design not seen before on any Chinese built aircraft, remember the J-11s are built from Russian plans and designed from A to Z, but it's to soon to know. The avionics which is the guts or heart and soul of the aircraft are unknown because to date China basically only produced advance Mig-21. The design looks like it's maneuverability from the new clip but I'm not a fighter pilot I don't if that quick flip change direction move is difficult.
Posted by: Valiant1
Insert Quote
Just like the F-16 has one engine from the F-15 Eagle. Doesn't mean the F-16 is the better fighter. It just means it shares the same engine as the Eagle.
Vipers do very well against Eagles from what I've read which includes beating more in close. The F-15 larger radar/scanner sees the Viper first so he tries to get into a better firing position first but the Viper radar picks up the F-15 soon after and before he can launch remember both have the same missiles. Pilot skill is huge in these type fights and like most air to air combat. A good source info on this is f-16net and read aircraft Y vs. other aircraft section in there forum.
Posted by: Valiant1
There is proof of a British pilot in a Typhoon who shot down 2 F-15C Eagles in a mock dogfight.
> I would expect it to because it's a newer more modern design it should. The Eagles is still a great fighter and only a few aircraft now can beat it a great design.
"But there still is no proof that even the Su-30Mk can take on the Eagle. Exercise Cope India didn't prove anything "
> I agree with you on this it's not a true test, for neither side would really show what it could really do and yes American fighter couldn't launch there missiles from max range. That handicap is important and remember US fighter are not going to show what type of jamming or spoofing they can really do against Russian made missiles. It was a exercise I think the truth may be in the middle some where they were better then the US thought and the US didn't show them true balls to the floor training.
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Nonpilot,
I never took pilot skill out of the equation. You're right about that part. I always mentioned pilots being equal in other areas of this forum. True, the F-16 may be able to take on the F-15, given the circumstances. After all, the F-16 was the USAF's first fly-by-wire fighter mass produced, so in that respect, I don't see why it would not be able to tangle with an Eagle. The electronics give the Falcon (or Viper, depending on the nation, I believe) a much better response than the Eagle's hydraulics, but still, the Eagle set many standards as the air superiority fighter that all others are measured by.
Concerning the Eagle vs.Flanker variant Su-30MK, US pilots, as I have mentioned, are under strict orders not to reveal their tactics against the Flankers. I am not discrediting the Flanker, on the contrary, I think it is an outstanding aircraft, by Russian design as well as Western. It is a fighter greatly respected by other nations. But on the same token, we cannot count the Eagle out in a dogfight w/the Flanker. Again, pilot skills and tactics play an important role. At the same time, although respected by others, the Flanker has been outclassed by fighters such as the Typhoon, the Gripen and the Raptor.
I have reason to believe the US Air Force has a Flanker and they are using it to compare against the Eagle. I have a feeling this is where they have created tactics against it.
In my opinion, the USAF doesn't need to spend billions on the Raptor...I believe evolving the Eagle to the next level would have been better and cheaper. Fly-by-wire technology, improved avionics and radar would have given the Eagle much better response to its already outstanding maneuverability, performance and lethality. Even new airframes w/larger wings for more fuel and weapons payload would increase the Eagle's effectiveness.
Ah, but alas, politics would win...all the time.
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Well, I heards that they have beaten even the -30MKI.
Where? How? It's extremely unlikely, the Indians wouldn't go mock dogfighting the Chinese, especially not in a fight with both country's latest yets. The only other Su-30MKI is Sukhoi's, they wouldn't lend it to the Chinese. So it's based on theories then...?
They are probably only saying that because Pakistan looks to buy J-10s, so it should be able to beat the Indian Su-30MKIs. I wouldn't be suprised if that claim is even coming from Paki defence/aviation enthusiasts in the first place.
I can see where it is coming from, the 30MKI is a large airframe, so even though the TVC and canards makes it very agile, in a fight with a lightweight, agile J-10, it might not differ too much. yeah then maybe in the WVR arena... just like the F-16 beats the F-15 then. However avionics wise I would put my money on Su-30MKI. Again, if the PLAAF commander says it is not as good as the Su-30MKK, why say that it beats a Su-30MKI...
I'm not even sure it has a proper radar already... ?
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Valiant1
the Eagle set many standards as the air superiority fighter that all others are measured by.
>I agree 110 percent
Valiant1
the Flanker has been outclassed by fighters such as the Typhoon, the Gripen and the Raptor.
Going by what pilots say in many forums Typhoon yes, Raptor - Flanker or just about any aircraft is out classed vs Raptor. Gripen I'll be honest I know the least about this fighter then any. But I would think the larger scanner on the Flankers radar would give him a edge because he would see the Gripen first and maybe get into a firing position that suites him better? One on one which wouldn't happen really in real life the Flanker has huge amounts of fuel could pick and chose when to enter the battle and leave the battle. This is an area where F-15s have an edge on Vipers too + larger scanner. In close I would assume a Gripen would eat up a larger Flanker, Flankers are bigger then F-14s. Valiant1 do you know a web site where I can read about Gripen's going up against other types? In training or mock up or even FX Bids? I would like to learn more about this fighter, thanks.
I have reason to believe the US Air Force has a Flanker and they are using it to compare against the Eagle. I have a feeling this is where they have created tactics against it.
> I agree the US must have tactics for dealing with Flankers or there would have been a F-15 replacement long before the F-22. I read in this other forum that a F/A-18 Hornet E/F with ASEA radar Slammer/X9 combo could hold it own and most likely get the first shot off. At some point I'm sure the fuel state plays a part in any Hornet vs battle but there's other factors as well. I think the US can jam Russian missiles to a point and have other I'll call them special tricks to keep the enemies missiles on there rails a little longer, but can't prove this.
[b]Globetrotter
Well, I heards that they have beaten even the -30MKI.[/b]
> I have read in the Chinese forums that the J-10 beats all the Chinese versions Su-30/J-11B as well but never the Indian version Su-30 MKI, this version has Israeli/French equipment and is a different beast all together plus other goodies. These two aircraft J-10 & Su-30 MKI have never seen each other so I think you have the types mixed up a little.
Valiant1
I agree with a lot of your views in general and about the F-15, and more should have been invested in this type before casting it to the side in favor of the F-22. There will be many missions for years to come for F-15/16 type aircraft and the US should have produced a aircraft in between the F-15 and F22, sort of in the Typhoon class. The F-35 is still many years away from going active and just can't see the air force using F-22s or future F-35s like they use F-16s now. A modern version of an F-15 with advance systems would have fit the bill for years to come. A design that could beat a Flanker hands down without thinking and be a little better in close would be perfect.
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Well nonpilot,
That version of the F-15 is just around the corner.
Helmet mounted sight
AIM-9X Sidewinder off-bore AA missile
AMRAAM missiles (which is in use)
APG-63 radar (correct me if I'm wrong)
Now, what the Eagle needs is a version of the Raptor's 35,000 lb thrust F119 engines w/3 dimensional thrust vectoring for even much better maneuvering during a dogfight. Plus the USAF should build several more airframes and implement a digital fly-by-wire system and you'll have an Eagle that can take on the latest Flankers.
Even in statistics, the Su-37 Terminator only held and 1.5 to 1 kill ratio against an F-15C, pilots being equal. So even the Sukhoi, with its fly-by-wire, forward canards, more powerful engines and thrust vectoring can't even score a lop-sided victory against the Eagle.
The US definitely has a Flanker in their hands, I can't even imagine how they would come up with tactics to beat it.
For example, in WW2, the US found a Japanese Zero ditched in an island and was sent back to the US. They evaluated it, found its strengths and weaknesses and developed tactics to beat it .
I'm a hot rodder at heart - bigger engine, more power, yada yada yada.
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Guys, have you heard about the J-XX, or J-14? It is a Chinese stealth fighter. Here is a picture:
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Techniqaully, China's Communist system is nothing like the Sovs was, so its hard to call them direct communists. like their not Leninism or Marxist, more Maoist.. similar, but different, but sitll, China would be better if their government changed
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Hey Flanker 94,
looks quite impressive. Most likely it's a prototype. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what it can do. But it does look pretty cool.
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Could it be a mock-up to make people think that the Chinese are working on something like this? Because the CIA,MI6,Mossad,ASIO and a whole other lot of acronyms would already know about it, and maybe the Chinese decided to tire them out by building a mock up of an advanced plane.
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http://www.sinodefence.com/news/2007/news07-04-17.asp
J-10 Fighter to be Fitted with a Chinese-Made Engine
17 April 2007
Chinese media reported on 15 April that the Chengdu J-10 fighter was to be fitted with a indigenously-built engine "within this year".
According to the report, a senior official of Chengdu-based 611 Aircraft Design Institute recently told the press that although the early production variant of the J-10 was fitted with a foreign-made engine for lower risk, the fighter would certainly be fitted with a Chinese indigenous engine, and this was likely to happen this year.
Currently the J-10 fighters in service with the PLA Air Force are powered by a Russian-made Lyulka-Saturn AL-31F turbofan engine. This means that the aircraft cannot be sold to a foreign customer without Russia’s consent. Such a limitation was reflected in the sale of another Chinese-made fighter FC-1/JF-17, which also uses the Russian-made engine. To avoid offending its biggest weapon buyer India, Russia was reluctant to allow the fighter powered by its RD93 engine to be exported to Pakistan, causing delays in the delivery of the fighter.
China has been developing its own WS-10A (commercial name: Taihang) turbofan engine for over a decade, but the project has encountered enormous technical difficulties. The engine was only certified for design finalisation in early 2006. Integration of the engine with the J-10 fighter is believed to be underway at Chengdu Aircraft Corporation.
Although the J-10 has yet been offered to the export market, many countries including Pakistan, Thailand, and Sri Lanka have already expressed their interests in this fighter. Once the fighter is fitted with the Chinese indigenous engine, it can be sold to any customer without restriction.
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Sort of like the F-16 of the Far East.
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Can China build an engine on its own, and actually have it work properly with out problems? They usually just make Russian Engines, so do they have the experience to make their own?
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It could turn out to be a Chinese F-16 you'll never know. For some reason this aircraft catches my attention it's just so much better then anything they made before and shows promise. I was reading that in 2007 China's air force is going to be sending some J-10s to Russia for joint training. From this were get a better idea what this aircraft is like it's to easy just to put it down. At a certain point there bound to get it right and create a modern fighter. I think a big help to China years ago was Pakistan, I can't prove it but I think China got to look under the hood of a Pakistan F-16. The Lavi program was also a part of this and just over time and billions of dollars of R&D China just got better. The video clips look good I just have questions about the radar, weapons systems, and engine. People forget China doesn’t have to design all the equipment in the fighter just is able to produce what’s out there on the market now. From years of buying Russian aircraft and from using kits the aircraft industry has improved. This J-10 isn’t a brand new aircraft testing has been going on for ten years plus. I think a good sign that China’s better is the fact that Pakistan wants more JF-17s, in the hundreds too. They wouldn’t waste there money and time if the project didn’t turn out good. There are more used Vipers they could buy but there not. It’s difficult and unlike China to show what they made to the general public and world. The US will get a chance to check out the JF-17 overtime sort of like how China got to check out the F-16.
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nonpilot,
the fact that Israel helped the Chinese w/the Lavi project and now possibly the Chinese getting a good look at an F-16, shows that they would not have been able to build this fighter if it were not for those 2 factors.
and everything is hype anyway. no one knows how good or how bad this plane is. we'll just have to wait and see.
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Hi Valiant1
"shows that they would not have been able to build this fighter if it were not for those 2 factors. "
Most likely not these two factor help a lot plus billions of dollars in R&D money. But China can produce modern fighters and there one of the few countries that can make that claim. Just because Henry Ford made the first car production line does that mean all the other cars that followed suck right? Other countries can and are producing interesting things like Brazil produces it's own Anti-radar missile now, the only country in South America that has them. Times change but nothing compares to the F-22 nor will it for years to come. The F-22 & F-35 combo will lead the pack for many years to come.
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nonpilot,
I guess you're right. Where would we be if we didn't get the technology from captured German ME-262's after WW2?
I see your point.
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Hi Valiant1
You got my point.
"Where would we be if we didn't get the technology from captured German ME-262's after WW2?"
Years behind the Russian and England in jet engines designs and know how. To me the captured V1 and V2 were more important overall don't you think?
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Yes, but remember, if it were not for the UK, the Russians wouldn't have had an engine that powered their Mig -15.
BIG mistake on the part of the British. I wouldn't have handed any kind of technology to the Russians back then.
Thanks to the Brits' "good will" policy towards the former Soviet Union.
General Geoge Patton had the right idea - take the remaining German soldiers (which numbered in the hundreds of thousands) and the rest of the Allies (Americans, British, French and Canadian) and destroy the Soviet Union. Patton did not trust the Russians and hated Communism more than he hated Nazism.
I feel his death due to a car "accident" was no accident. They didn't want some "madman" shooting his mouth off about fighting the Soviets. Too bad, because Patton was right. The Soviets were a big headache for over 50 years.
Sorry for going off on a tangent.
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I agree with your statements in many ways and the Brits' did give them a jet engine which started there industry for them. And 20 plus years ago Russia gave China there's and the rest is history. I also agree with most of what you said about Patton too just that if I were and alive during the second world war, I wouldn't want to be assigned to his division.
Back to J-10 fighters who besides Pakistan do you think my be future customers? My vote would be Venezuela and I have mind reasons.
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Yes, but remember, if it were not for the UK, the Russians wouldn't have had an engine that powered their Mig -15.
BIG mistake on the part of the British. I wouldn't have handed any kind of technology to the Russians back then.
Thanks to the Brits' "good will" policy towards the former Soviet Union.
General Geoge Patton had the right idea - take the remaining German soldiers (which numbered in the hundreds of thousands) and the rest of the Allies (Americans, British, French and Canadian) and destroy the Soviet Union. Patton did not trust the Russians and hated Communism more than he hated Nazism.
I feel his death due to a car "accident" was no accident. They didn't want some "madman" shooting his mouth off about fighting the Soviets. Too bad, because Patton was right. The Soviets were a big headache for over 50 years.
Sorry for going off on a tangent.
Strange... there are people that believe that capitalism has been a headache for 500 years, how's that :o
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I agree with your statements in many ways and the Brits' did give them a jet engine which started there industry for them. And 20 plus years ago Russia gave China there's and the rest is history. I also agree with most of what you said about Patton too just that if I were and alive during the second world war, I wouldn't want to be assigned to his division.
Back to J-10 fighters who besides Pakistan do you think my be future customers? My vote would be Venezuela and I have mind reasons.
Yes, venezuela need a more light weight fighter, as they have the Su-30s
What about Iran? It just camo to my head, as they may want to expand their air power just in case, and what would they buy? certainly a Russian or Chinese product...
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I would NEVER sell to Iran. Nor would I sell to North Korea. You may be right - maybe a few South American countries would buy it - including a few other Asian countries like Thailand, Malaysia - could be a very affordable fighter also.
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Chinese future J-10 sales could go into many directions. For myself I’m looking through some list I have of former and current customers. Like other large power governments China puts or places pressure on there business partners as well and some governments will find themselves with little choice. China and Iran have very good ties but I always wondered why more arms deals between the two countries haven’t been sign, it kind of doesn’t make sense. In general even for China doing business with Iran in the public isn’t a good business move, China is a part of many world wide markets. China doesn’t want to lose these growing markets for there products either so it’s all about money and business. I think Venezuelan has a shot for these mid size J-10 fighters because even know Chavez is a pain in an ass to the US, he’s is small fry compared to Iran. He may think he’s more then that or believe his military is so great for buying some modern stuff but Venezuelan is 1/20 as dangerous as Iran. For this reason China might sneak some orders in because Venezuela is such a small fish in the fish bowl overall. The VAF should have placed a followed up order for more Flankers by now 22 or 24 doesn’t cut it so I think things are brewing. I’ll look through more Chinese information and narrow it down more I’m sure I’ll get it down to under six countries who might be future J-10 customers.
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The US only buys 7 or 8 percent of our daily needs from Venezuela. it’s higher on the Venezuelan export side because of the number barrels sold but the US imports so much more oil from other sources then Venezuela it’s a drop in a bucket that could be made up else where easy. In fact American refineries are user friendly to the Venezuelan oil industry because not many countries have the type of refineries that can refine heavy crude oil.
I agree as a President of a modern country he shows no class the way he spoke in front of the United Nations and the world press. He’s taking away almost all the rights and power from Venezuela’s government and the voting process is a sad joke for the common people who voted him in. He’s still small time for now and smarter enough to stay just under American radar for being a true threat. One day he’ll order his Flankers to Cuba and base some there and that’s where hell starts making mistakes. His air force would have to more then triple in size and train up 200+ pilots plus other goodie to be a real thorn in the American side. What hurts Venezuela’s chances with China goes back to big business. China even selling 200 fighters plus goodie to go along with them is still only like comparing a candy store to Wal-Mart to what the American-Chinese market is like. Yes China likes Venezuelan oil/gas, and yes China would love to get a large aircraft order in. I think not if it meant messing with the United States there largest trading partner. If the jerk just tones it down a little then yes it could happen a major deal could be had, but what are chances of that right?
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He going to have to tone it down or even the Chinese won't deal with him. But I think he will it's feeling I have and he'll slip under the radar and get weapons from China. Iran is difficult to understand they needed fighters for ten years now and have done very little about it. It doesn't make sense there F-14s must be down to a handful. They couldn't defend there border against Kuwait’s air force so something is brewing there too. Russia or China is going to sell jets to Iran within two years time but a lot depends on that nuke reactor. Russia does huge amounts of trade with the US too and they don't want to mess that up. I was looking at it before Sudan buys small arms from China now and China buys there oil. China started buying more in the last two years but still nothing on the level as they buy from Iran. Maybe Africa whose oil is untapped compared to most of the worlds oil reserves go might be J-10 or FC-1 customers. China need for oil is only second to the United States so where the oil is China might go. This is turning into an oil thread now but aircraft & arms go hand and hand with oil and oil money. So Venezuela, Iran, Sudan could and are key players imagine if China nailed all three? Type in Google “China weapons sales in Africa” and check out the results I’ll attach one there are many. I think Africa might be China new hot spot after reading a few of these what do you think?
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=China+weapons+sales+in+Africa
This is one
http://www.cfr.org/publication/9557/
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Fight fight fight!!! :) Nothing is more fun than watching a couple of people sling mud at each other on the forums, as if life is so serious and everything that is said here should be taken to heart.
Please, more!
The level of maturity here will reach new levels! *grab popcorn*
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That's true, RecceJet. So i'll give up on that.
So nonpilot, which are the countries that you were thinking of as possible buyers?
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A little China Africa breakdown
Which African countries has China sold weapons to?
Between 1955 and 1977, Le Monde reports, China sold $142 million worth of military equipment to Africa, and the pace of sales has picked up significantly since then. The Congressional Research Service reports China's arms sales to Africa made up 10 percent of all conventional arms transfers to the continent between 1996 and 2003. They include:
• Sudan. China has sold the Islamic government in Khartoum weapons and $100 million worth of Shenyang fighter planes, including twelve supersonic F-7 jets, according to the aerospace industry journal Aviation Week and Space Technology. Experts say any military air presence exercised by the government—including the helicopter gunships reportedly used to terrorize civilians in Darfur—comes from China.
• Equatorial Guinea. China has provided military training and Chinese specialists in heavy military equipment to the leaders of the tiny West African nation, whose oil reserves per capita approach and may exceed those of Saudi Arabia.
• Ethiopia and Eritrea. China sold Ethiopia and its neighbor, Eritrea, an estimated $1 billion worth of weapons before and during their border war from 1998 and 2000.
• Burundi. In 1995, a Chinese ship carrying 152 tons of ammunition and light weapons meant for the army of Burundi was refused permission to dock in Tanzania.
• Tanzania. According to the Overseas Development Institute, China has delivered at least thirteen covert shipments of weapons labeled as agricultural equipment to Dar-es-Salaam.
• Zimbabwe. The autocratic government of Robert Mugabe ordered twelve FC-1 fighter jets and 100 military vehicles from China in late 2004 in a deal worth $200 million, experts say. In May 2000, China reportedly swapped a shipment of small arms for eight tons of Zimbabwean elephant ivory, Taylor writes in his report. In addition, the U.S.-backed International Broadcast Bureau says China provided a radio jamming device to Zimbabwe that allows Mugabe's regime to block broadcasts of independent news sources like Radio Africa from a military base outside Harare. China also donated the blue tiles that decorate the roof of Mugabe's house.
So Sudan or/ both Zimbabwean might be future buyers of J-10 or FC-1 fighters.
http://www.cfr.org/publication/9557/ The above is from a 2007
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Interesting... so what I can extract from that is that they are interested in African Oil... and Ivory. May there be a weapons race in Africa? Or are they just renewing their material?
Well, I guess that the J-10 has a future, but I can't wait to see it do some exercise with other country's planes... ::)
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Sudan has built stronger ties with Russia though and is looking at MiG-29 advanced variants. Those helicopter gunships are Mi-35s, definately NOT coming from China. Belief it or not, China is not a Hind operator. Who are those experts ;) Sudan did also recently order the K-8 trainer, so yes definately a market for the J-10./FC-10.
I think your missing a few on your list:
- Namibia: ordered 6 to 8 Chengdu F-7NG fighters, so in future might be a small market for the FC-10.
- Nigeria: Nigeria is spending more and more on defence. 156 million has been set aside to get grounded fighters back in the air. A replacement for the Alpha Jet is needed, L-159 has been offered, but I'd bet on the K-8. The NAF has bought Chengdu J-7s in the past and has been expressing interest in the F-8IIM (pic (http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/j8iim_pic03.asp)). Definately a market for the FC-10.
- Ghana: bought some K-8 jet trainers, but I don't think they will ever have the cash for real fighters.
and maybe some more
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Hi Webmaster
Thanks for pointing out a few more countries that I left out. And yes I did know that China isn't a Hind user, never understood it but did know it. I started this by doing a simple search in Google for “Chinese arms in Africa" I was researching who might buy the J-10 or even the FC-1/JF-17and I stumble onto this topic. I had no idea that China had such strong and growing interest in Africa sort have caught me off guard a little. This J-10 just caught my attention it seems so much more then a glorified Mig-21 it’s like they jump into the big leagues with this one.
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China Oil obsession
I found this and thought it was interesting reading
http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/2006/06/1813592
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I'm a bit confused here. Does reccehet want to live or not? And oh, hang on. What on earth is going on with the sales thing? SG nearly bought the Terminators from russia, co-incidentally... And oh, i had no idea China had an oil-obsession...
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Talk c*ck leh you!
What live or not? ???
My comments were made in the context of posts that have been taken away, I'm assuming due to their content.
I didn't make comments on the points raised in this thread through my last post. Just observing the conduct at the time which has now been rectified ;D
I dislike arguments that resort to attacks on the opposing parties rather than the discussing of the issues involved.
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I'm sorry everybody I went off topic on the China oil issue and away from the J-10 itself. I'll post some new stuff I found on it soon, well I think its' new.
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ew J-10 satellite antenna
From China Defense Blog : Sharp eye folks have spotted a new satellite antenna on the J-10 spine behind the cockpit.
Monday, May 14, 2007
The Hunchback of Chengdu? (http://bp0.blogger.com/_3wZSwFvZzqM/RkjOJY9xHkI/AAAAAAAAARM/MFhp7rfb5co/s400/post-47-1179171729.jpg)
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That was a brilliant singaporean reply. heh.
I can't see it, nonpilot...
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me neither. all i see is a grey thing behind the cockpit with a red circle drawn around it
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Looks like a good spot for datalink antenna, but can be some fairing for any kind of antenna, or even for a new canopy actuator which takes some more place than the previous one :P :P
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I was hunting for something new and must admit it's difficult to really pick out anything. I even look at pictures of other J-10s but can't really pick up on anything. I was hoping somebody here might notice or know something more on the topic. Like the webmaster said it looks like a good spot for a datalink antenna to go.
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I found a close up to what that thing is but still not sure.
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e338/Hyperwarp/J-10A/post-47-1179171687.jpg)
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Correct me, but this place would be the best for air refueling. Why would they put there something like an antena, and not in the tail . After all i see a rectangular opening which seems that it is there for other reasons.
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It is dangerously close to the canopy for aerial refueling. Anyway, China uses probe-and-drogue, not the boom. I believe the only tankers they have are Badgers with wing pods.
Are you sure that close-up is one from a J-10? Because it doesn't look the same, look at the bulp-up canopy of the J-10. This looks more like that L-15, you posted some pics of in the Yak-130 thread.
I stick with the datalink, the Raptor has one in the same spot. It's close to the cockpit, so avionics wise it makes sense. Not sure if it is also a satellite link though.
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Can you get a close-up on the words? All i can see it a '7 6 5 factory...'