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Author Topic: MiG-35  (Read 40100 times)

Offline Raptor

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Re: MiG-35
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2007, 01:55:22 PM »
Guys guys guys. Watch the grammer and spelling. You're making mistakes EVERYWHERE. Um, Sergei and karun. Welcome to the forum. Look, i know some people sympathize with close-up dogfighting aircraft only, so i'm going to say this once. The Americans, as usual, do not have the unlimited (or at least that's the general impression Russia exudes) supply of men and resources. And. They need the pilots who HAVE won a battle to live to fight another day. Concept sound familiar? Thought so. BVR-efficient aircraft suffer so much from critics that most people get the impression that they need a fighter escort. (At least that's what some folks here think. *#*&^#*&%#&*) *Ahem*. Then again, the F-22 is quite enough invisible to radar. And apart from that, it does happen to be in production. Albeit a small scale. We'll discuss that another time. It does happen to be among the fastest fighters in production right now. (Long term speeds, not the jumps and drop Russia does.) And. The materials used are definitely superior to the Russians. AND. It is very mauneverable. 2D TVC and all... I respect the Russian engineers and blah blah all right, but this is stretching it. Why on earth the two planes would be locked in close combat is beyond me. Thank you my old friends for the support. *bows*. Okay, STRETCH. Where is Cobra2???
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Offline Globetrotter

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Re: MiG-35
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2007, 06:44:23 PM »
Please, stop remarking faults in our English, people have different levels, if yours is high, then congratulations, we don't have the obligation. Plus, if you do a little more effort you'll be able to understand. :-X
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Offline valkyrian

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Re: MiG-35
« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2007, 06:51:01 PM »
I guess that it could take a very bad pilot to drag the -22 to a dogfight with a -35, since theoritically , Raptor has all the goodies it needs to play the sniper role (aka Vasili Zaitsev - Enemy at the gates).
But if, due to bad luck, bad day, misfortune, absence of sexual activities, or anything else you might think), these 2 get in a dogfight, i give them a 50-50 or 45-55 in favor of the -35 (since the low RCS won't play any role and the big size will betray the -22) provided the Russians have replaced those "smoking heavy" devices with something more......enviromental healthy....

Offline valkyrian

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Re: MiG-35
« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2007, 06:52:15 PM »
Oh, hi Thomas, nice point, i think that Raptor was making just a humor...

Offline Cobra2

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Re: MiG-35
« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2007, 11:04:20 PM »
I do agree with Raptor. I mean, the MiG-35 Fulcrum-F and F-22 Raptor most likely are not going to get in close combat. And the F-22 would in most cases have the MiG-35 out of the skies before the MiG pilot realises it.

Offline tigershark

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Re: MiG-35
« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2007, 01:52:43 AM »
Dog fighting wise the the F-22 pilot would have done something very wrong to allow a Mig-35 in close. 

I really like this new Fulcrum F or what it might become.   It shows promise but sadly Russia themselves need to buy it and/or at least nail down India forever 126 aircraft purchase.   Talk is cheap and Russia needs to move on this fast and get a finished product into service and show the dam thing off.   Funding I guess is holding this aircraft back and time is wasting. 

The Austria air force buying high priced Typhoons should have been a Mig-29M or Mig-35F order, blown sale.
The Algeria large order and upgrade should have been the same Mig-29M or Mig-35F order not SMT, blown sale.
Poland I think wanted to break away from Russia a little but if the Mig-35 was ready I think their may have opt for it. 
Yemen ordered Mig-29 SMT to not too long ago again should have been Mig-29M or Mig-35F order, blown sale.
If any of the above were filled I think India would have sign the papers already. 

I have hope but it's fading.

Offline Webmaster

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Re: MiG-35
« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2007, 04:57:28 AM »
Regarding the F-22 discussion, it's irrelevant. The most likely enemy are Chinese fighters, Mirages, the occasional F-16, Su-27, and of course numerous MiG-29 of different versions. Except for Iran maybe, which will be buying Sukhoi's. And Syria would also have to deal with Israeli fighters, so that's why it want more than just Fulcrums. But eh, seems they're not getting any MiG-31 or Su-30, so who knows. Imagine the MiG-29, M2000, Israeli F-16 or F-15, Su-27 as your enemy. You notice anything? They're all equipped with off-boresight targetting with highly agile IR, you'd want TVC then. You can't get stealth, and besides on a non-wartime QRA visual ID is required... how will you do that from BVR? ( no need to answer)

The MiG-35 is an improved MiG-29 for the export market, primarily for India, but consider this: "SMT upgrades not good enough, M/M2 too close to competitors, you know what, here's the MiG-35.... see the number, it's brand new, just as capable as a Su-35 or F-35, and it has TVC. It's even better than anything the Americans can offer you *** see disclaimer. Ow the USA wouldn't sell to you? But you're not interesting in MiG-29M/M2, ow okay, you want Flankers instead, can you afford it, no? Here's the MiG-35. Ow wait, you can afford it, can you assembly them yourself? No? Let's upgrade your MiG-29s to SMT standard, or wanna swap planes? Ah, your neighbour has got those... well, what about the MiG-35 then, did I mention it has TVC!"

Russia is upgrading their Fulcrums to SMT or less comprehensive versions. It has more than it needs. And before the -35 would have entered Russian service, the Flankers are upgraded with A-S capability, bombers will have better stand-off and precision weapons. Even the MiG-31 are fitted with more A-S capability. So upgraded Fulcrums makes more sense. Especially with the T-50 coming up.So yes, funding is low and slow, especially since MiG has made sure it faces almost no competition in Fulcrum upgrade market, than in new fourth generation aircraft. However you don't need that much funding, because you can lend so much from earlier M/M2 projects, SMT, and the Zhuk radars are developed anyhow.

My view on the "blown sales" nonpilot pointed out:

Austria: as far as I know, no RFP was issued to the Russians, which basically means you can't bid. They didn't want Russian, besides no MiG-35 back then.

Algeria: Russia has many MiG-29s, it is upgrading them with the SMT package. They are cheap, especially when Russia takes back your old MiG-29s. I saw one source as quoting 1.5 billion for 50 aircraft, complete package, before the option of taking back old aircraft was discussed.. That's probably cheaper than new-built MiG-29Ms, and the SMT has better range as far as I know, which Algeria would need.

Poland: No MiG-35 back then. I think Poland couldn't have overhauled/upgraded their MiG-29s with anyone other than MiG itself. Would you buy from them again then. And yes, of course it wants to break away from Russia. It's a NATO member. All the compatability issues would need to be solved (again).

Yemen: Yemen is not that wealthy. They are SMT upgrades of their existing fleet as far as I know?

India: No they wouldn't because it's a lengthy bureaucratic process with a bid. If they stretch it long, the USA (new dev F-16s, Super Hornets, and for future F-35 possibility) and France (M2K production stopped, oferring Rafale now?) start offering more advanced aircraft. And that's even before bidding has begun. When bidding begins, I wouldn't be surprised if you see all parties revising their offers. But India needs a combat aircraft, not a (dog)fighter, so I don't think they will ultimately care about the TVC (if they're smart they put that Zhuk-MAE in, and offer it in a late batch or retrofit program for the Flankers currently on order). However because of the commonality with the K/KUB of the Navy, and previous MiG-29 experience in both IAF and HAL, it has a good chance! But because Russia is selling to China, and India is closening its ties with the west, I would put my money on the yanks. India making same mistake as Pakistan did...maybe?

But I can give you this one:

Venezuela: by offering the M or SMT, they put themselves out of the selection because it was clear (at least to me) that Chavez could afford some good planes and wanted the best. They lost to Sukhoi. Of course, Rosoboronexport is selling them. I don't know if Sukhoi/KnAAPO has better ties with the state export company than the new RAC MiG has. But I wouldn't be surprised! Anyway, would the -35 have been available, it would have made a good chance. Even the option of second hand Su-27 was considered, because it was not sure they could get the new Flankers.
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Offline tigershark

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Re: MiG-35
« Reply #31 on: August 19, 2007, 04:29:02 PM »
I also read in a few places where Venezuela was getting very close to buying Mig-29s, interesting.   I know at the times there wasn't a Mig-35 with my blown sales comments.   I should have been clearer what I meant that at least on paper Russia was offering a lot of the later model Fulcrums upgrades.   I feel that if Russia themselves bought into the SMT program on a large scale and productions lines for aircraft and parts was built they might have landed a few of these lost sales.   Webmaster do you know of any source where I can read about current and real operational SMT Fulcrums?   I'm confused with the Algerian order wouldn't Mig have a big press coverage like Sukhoi did with Venezuela's Flankers?   Wouldn't they "Mig" try and market the aircraft like having pilots talk about the old Fulcrums comparing it to the newer SMT, and how good it is?   Are Yemen's Fulcrum really SMT or just upgraded S models?  Thanks

Offline Sergei

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Re: MiG-35
« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2007, 05:37:19 PM »
   Are Yemen's Fulcrum really SMT or just upgraded S models?  Thanks

Yes? Yemen really has 16 MiG-29SMT and 4 MiG-29UBT.

Now, everything, as to fighter MiG-35. This fighter - not any demonstration project. It is a fighter which has been created for deliveries to export. First of all, for participation in the Indian tender. And MiG-35, apparently, this tender will win.

As to an onboard radar station of the newest Russian fighters... Zhuk-M - yesterday. Now on Su-35's onboard radar stations "Irbis" stand. Opportunities of this station on detection of the planes created on so-called technology "stealth" are unknown. Besides, it is possible to recollect NATO bombardments of Yugoslavia. And in particular how at first Yugoslavian MiG-29 has brought down F-117A " Night Hawk ". The Same then has made it is antiaircraft-rocket complex S-125. So F-22 - not panacea. And on him means we shall find.
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Offline tigershark

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Re: MiG-35
« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2007, 05:55:52 PM »
Quote
Sergei
And in particular how at first Yugoslavian MiG-29 has brought down F-117A

I thought this was cleared up and confirmed that a SAM shot it down, basically flying over the SAM site.   

Offline valkyrian

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Re: MiG-35
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2007, 12:36:21 AM »
I doubt if the Russians have developed such a anti stealth technology. For example, the track while scan capability of the early Flankers, were unexisted, now this ability has been updated to about 6-8 (i think with Bears radar). So, how is it possible, for radars with poor processing abilities to identify, track and lock on such a difficult target? (i accept that the -22 is stealthy, at least in the front quarter).

I would like very much to see Russian electronics industry to be as modern as the Western. But what they luck is not ideas or scientists, but funding. I recall one of my professors in the university when saying, that Russians had developed better softwares to compensate for the luck of processing power.

Offline Raptor

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Re: MiG-35
« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2007, 12:32:05 PM »
I'm not sure about the no-anit-stealth-radar. Both the Russian and the Chinese have been known to create fascinating things. Such as paper (Chinese) and um, ah... You know.

(I stole this idea from somewhere. I'm not sure where exactly, but SOMEWHERE). They could use the equivalent of a hole-in-ocean sonar with the radar. I can't fully recall the concept, but it was kinda sane.
-JCLim

 



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