Only few technical, financial issues pending on Gorshkov deal

[tigershark]

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Only few technical, financial issues pending on Gorshkov deal
 Moscow, Feb 21 (PTI) India and Russia have launched experts-level talks to thrash out the "few remaining" technical and financial issues pending on the upgrading of aircraft carrier Gorshkov, a senior Russian official said today.
"Hectic efforts are on at all levels to resolve the issue of Gorshkov, which was discussed at the highest political level by President Vladimir Putin and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, and now few remaining technical and financial issues are being discussed at experts level," Director of 2nd Asia Department of the Russian Foreign Ministry Alexander Maryasov said.

Defence Secretary Vijay Singh is presently leading a high-level Indian delegation to Russia to carry out physical verification of additional refit work needed on the aircraft carrier to justify additional costs as claimed by Moscow.

The 45,000 tonne displacement carrier was to have been delivered by August this year as per a USD 1.5 billion contract signed in 2005 but Russia stunned India in November by demanding an additional USD 1.2 billion for refitting and other works.

In a parallel development, RAC MiG Corporation today announced that it will deliver 16 MiG-29K fighters developed for Gorshkov to India by June this year.

According to the initial agreement, 12 Fighters and 4 fighter-trainers were to be deployed on Gorshkov after its induction by the Indian navy as INS Vikramaditya. PTI

Link
http://www.ptinews.com/pti%5Cptisite.nsf/0/5F699B9C1D1C7972652573F600543C3B?OpenDocument

[MKopack]

Is the ability to deploy 16 obsolete MiG-29's off an old reworked carrier even woth the trouble and expense? If you lose an aircraft a year (probably a pretty hopeful scenerio based on India's military aviation history, their carrier based aviation background, and the MiG's awful accident rate) and within a couple of years what have you really got, another Chinese aircraft carrier tourist attraction?

Mike

[Webmaster]

First of all they are not obsolete MiG-29s, but the latest available and new ones as well. Secondly yes it's worth it, simply because Pakistan doesn't have a carrier and probably not enough aircraft to defend both the border and the coast. India has a carrier to replace and the Sea Harriers that go with it, which by the way have a far worse accident record than any MiG-29 operator I can think of.

Welcome (back) by the way!

[MKopack]

First of all they are not obsolete MiG-29s, but the latest available and new ones as well. Secondly yes it's worth it, simply because Pakistan doesn't have a carrier and probably not enough aircraft to defend both the border and the coast. India has a carrier to replace and the Sea Harriers that go with it, which by the way have a far worse accident record than any MiG-29 operator I can think of.

Welcome (back) by the way!

Thanks Niels, I'm happy to be back!

Even a new updated MiG-29 though, let's all face it, is still a 'rehashed' early 1980's design, which in a lot of ways was even limited in its best days. Operating from an aircraft carrier is incredibly difficult, and even more so when India is going to attempt to make an incredible leap in naval aviation technology as they have planned. There WILL be losses, in making this transition - it's a big step from operating Sea Harriers onboard to the MiG's, who even the Russians have admitted were never really 'at home' on their aircraft carrier decks.

On the other hand, as you stated, if India can actually become 'operational' with their new carrier and its air wing it would open an entirely new threat to their potential foe in the region.

Mike

[Raptor]

I'm not a Russian aircraft fan, but i have to go with Webby here. The MiG-29 is just as capable as the F-15/16 counterparts, and half as expensive. They could have double the number-i'm sure they don't need that many but even assuming they have that bad an accident rate...

India, however is a huge fan on Russian military harware. I'm sure they won't keep India waiting too long. Not good to anger potential mass buyers.

[Webmaster]

Even a new updated MiG-29 though, let's all face it, is still a 'rehashed' early 1980's design, which in a lot of ways was even limited in its best days.

Rehashed? I think the differences are tremendous. You can replace MiG-29 with Super Hornet there. I'm not saying they are just as capable, but the leap is comparable. There's nothing wrong with choosing an updated 1980s design when your opponent(s) also flies (updated) 1980s fighters, especially when you have little other options available (at the time of selection).

[tigershark]

I'm mixed a little on Mig-29 capabilities overall.

Raptor
MiG-29 is just as capable as the F-15/16 counterparts, and half as expensive.

You maybe right about the price but remember you get what you pay for.
F-15 vs. Mig-29 Fulcrum - The Eagle has a much better situation awareness then the Fulcrum, better radar, and better missiles, the AA-11 isn't the standout it was in the mid 80s.   From what I've read the Fulcrum can be nasty in certain ways in a fight but overall not in a F-15 class.  I think the Fulcrum might a better turner at low speeds and I think I even saw on Wings it climbs faster then an F-15.  From what an F-15C pilot described to me its harder for an Fulcrum pilots to stay out of the Eagle's strengths then it is for the Eagle pilot to stay out of the Fulcrums strengths, if that makes sense.  The same goes for the Vipers too and no way does a Fulcrum have anywhere near the capabilities of a Viper in AG. 

A better test would be India's K model Fulcrums and really see if the radar and engines are better.  On paper it says it has a better pilot view, almost smokless engines, modern cockpit, etc.  In the world of Fulcrums I think only Yemen flies an SMT upgraded Fulcrum and little is know about if the upgrades really work.  Most Fulcrums are A,SE,N, etc basically a slight upgraded C models not the super for air shows only Mig-29M flying fancy loops and so on.  If upgrades are done and the equipment works mixed in good training and maintenance, I believe the Fulcrum could be a good performer.   

Mig-29 vs. the west - Not really a true test of the Fulcrums capabilities always outnumber by AWACS supported fighters and I've read some were down graded Fulcrums as well.  Next add in weak pilot training and some cases little or no radar so your bound to lose badly.  Some of these Fulcrum pilot were very brave to take to the skies.   I don't knock the west for fighting the Fulcrums in the way they did its about winning and staying alive such is war. 

[MKopack]

The largest advantage that the MiG-29 ever had was its leap forward in generation from the MiG-23 series aircraft. The early aircraft, although quite manuverable and with some great weapons for their time, almost couldn't be considered modern combat aircraft of the day. Awful visibility, avionics, radar, engines, range, maintainability and manufacturing workmanship. It was at best a capable classic Soviet ground controlled day fighter. A Soviet MiG Factory demo pilot told me the same during a North American tour back in 1988(?): "The MiG is the best airshow airplane in the world, but I wouldn't want to have to fly one in combat." When I asked what he would prefer, he smiled and pointed at the Viper parked across the ramp, and addresed each of the issues that I mentioned above.

Yes, the new MiGs are a lot better then the Fulcrum A's, but let's put it this way - there was a lot of room for growth.

If the MiG-29 is as good as the F-16 or F-15 for half the price, as you say, where are they all? For that much capability, at that price, somebody would buy them. List the customers who have chosen the MiG-29 over - I was going to say a Western combat aircraft, but list the customers who have chosen the MiG-29 over anything if they really had an alternative.

Mike

[valkyrian]

There is a tedency to underestimate the Russian aircrafts, but correct me if i'm wrong, how many expensive F-4 fell victims to the primitive MiG-19 and to the ill -equipped MiG-21's?

How is it possible for a Mig-25 to manage to escape from  AWACS assisted F-15's after having fired upon them Acrids?

When the -29 was evaluated against the Eagles, (East German airforce) it was found that with the primitive HMS could control a far greater volume of the sky. In other areas, as pilot load, it was found to be years behind.


I doubt even if today a MiG-29 K has the quality of the electronics a Viper had 10 years ago, but they are weapon systems, not a collection of fancy electronics or pieces of airshow. A cobra maneuver may be worthless as long as a nice radar locks on you while you don't even know it. And even a multi million dollar stealth airframe who accidentally meets (close) in a lucky TVC Flanker or OVT MiG-29, will be worthless against the supermaneuvrability.