Sukhoi T-50

[F-111 C/C]

I'm suprised I have not seen much info here on the Sukhoi PAK FA 5th generation fighter (maybe I didn't dig deep enough?). Sounds pretty awesome but, as with most of their new concepts, most of the design and technology seems a little too coincidental in it's likeness to the F-22 (Do they steal everything? - Sorry, I'm a veteran of the Cold War).
Anyway, I'm curious on people's opinions.

[tigershark]

Hi F-111 C/C
I get Russians aviation fans displeased with on this topic because there's not a single thing you could dig your teeth in on this.  The only thing I could find is "some systems for the 5th generation have been tested" not the aircraft itself.  There's nothing and I get tired of hearing its coming in 2009, 2010, etc, but what's coming out?  It's taking forever just to produce and get into real production the Su-35 which is basically an upgraded Flanker.  I suffer from a little cold war times as well to be honest but you can Google this until your fingers are bleeding but you'll never find anything useful.  It makes me crazy the way some people talk of the jet like its real it blows my mind.  Russia just catching up to the sub systems that they couldn't produce in the MKI Flankers and now they just jump into 5th generation just like that.  Isn't the F-22 something like a 15 or 16 year program costing billions of dollars of R&D money?  Plus lessons learn the SR-71 and F-117 programs all rolled into one?     

How do you go from a Flanker basically a late 3rd or 4th generation aircraft to 5th like that and say early models will be produced by 2010?

[F-111 C/C]

I agree wholeheartedly Tigershark. Seems like a lot of rhetoric with NO substance. Because of the what's involved in the RDT&E of a new weapons platform, it hard for even the richest of countries (which Russia is NOT) to get an aircraft functional before it's already obsolete from a technological standpoint.

[SukhoiLover]

Well, tigershark is the pessimist on this matter, and i´m the optimist 

1st-The main argument on this matter is that we almost don´t hear anything about this matter, well, i think that speculation plays for the Russians, plus we cannot blame the Russian for keeping such important project in such secrecy.

2nd- Technology, apparently the Russian are behind in this matter, well:

a) The  Russians invented stealth technology with Mr Pyotr Yakovlevich Ufimtsev, plus they have experimented plasma stealth technologies and have RAM materials, as a result doing a stealth fighter shouldn´t be that hard.

b) In terms of radars, etc, read this: http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2008-04.html
The Russians are already developing and probably testing AESA radars, and underrated version of the PAK-FA´s engine is already flying in the Su-35BM, the BM is already making use of such technologies like sensory fusion, etc.

Theres also another thing, the PAK-FA program has its origins in 2002, however it will incorporate lessons learned from programs like the Su-47 and MiG-1.44 which started in late 80´s.

Budget shouldn´t be a big problem either, people are underestimating Russia in this, they certainly went through a serious crisis, however the will to modernize its army with such projects like the new carriers, new tanks and the PAK-FA shows that money shouldn´t be a big problem.

Either way, its just like i always say, we are in 2009 and the 1st flight is scheduled for this year or for 2010, time will say if PAK-FA is just speculation or not.

[F-111 C/C]

It's maiden flight is scheduled for 2010 but, correct me if I'm wrong, this is the third rescheduled date for it's maiden flight. I think that alone has significance in their not being able to get the project going like they would have wanted. Secondly, RAM material is 60s technology. True Stealth is in obtuse design angles and less emphasis on RAM. Also, while their radar sets are impressive, their fire-control systems have yet to come close to the capabilities of the West with multiple target acquisition fire and forget capability. They are incorporating Satellite Navigation now. The West used that in the 70s and discontinued it in the early 80s when ring-laser gyro INS technology made them obsolete!
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE all the Su-27 variants (and why do they have to rename the MDS every time they update, why couldn't they use Su-27A,B,C,D,E,... like everyone else, it'd be much less confusing!)
I just think, as has always been the case, they are "a day late and a dollar short" when it comes to their weapons platforms. I think the success of the export MiG-29 variants and now Su-27 variants (Su-30MK) has more to do with a good plane for a fantastic price other than a great plane for a too expensive price.

[SukhoiLover]

It's maiden flight is scheduled for 2010 but, correct me if I'm wrong, this is the third rescheduled date for it's maiden flight. I think that alone has significance in their not being able to get the project going like they would have wanted. Secondly, RAM material is 60s technology. True Stealth is in obtuse design angles and less emphasis on RAM. Also, while their radar sets are impressive, their fire-control systems have yet to come close to the capabilities of the West with multiple target acquisition fire and forget capability. They are incorporating Satellite Navigation now. The West used that in the 70s and discontinued it in the early 80s when ring-laser gyro INS technology made them obsolete!
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE all the Su-27 variants (and why do they have to rename the MDS every time they update, why couldn't they use Su-27A,B,C,D,E,... like everyone else, it'd be much less confusing!)
I just think, as has always been the case, they are "a day late and a dollar short" when it comes to their weapons platforms. I think the success of the export MiG-29 variants and now Su-27 variants (Su-30MK) has more to do with a good plane for a fantastic price other than a great plane for a too expensive price.

There have been reschedules but since Sukhoi won the contract in 2002 and although they already had the expertise from the Su-47 development, building and designing the PAK-FA to earlier than 2009-2010 was just unrealistic

About RAM, tell me something, where the hell did i say the emphasis would be on RAM? I said the  Russians invented stealth technology with Mr Pyotr Yakovlevich Ufimtsev, plus they have experimented plasma stealth technologies and have RAM materials, read the sentence again, and this time pay attention while doing it to avoid misinterpretation.
What i mean is that since the Russians where the ones who created the formulas that tell you how to shape a plane to make it stealth, together with the advances in plasma stealth field (although i don´t believe we´ll see that in planes anytime soon) and RAM materials, the development of a stealth fighter shouldn´t be that hard.

Just a small note, RAM is 60´s tech, but for some reason the F-22 and the F-35 still use it, maybe thats because it increments the plane´s natural shape to avoid radars and thus it makes all sense that PAK-FA should have a touch of RAM too?

About tech, WCS etc, i say it again read this: http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Flanker-Radars.html

P.S- About the INS systems, go to Rosoboronexport and check their catalog, they have INS systems, so if some planes still use satellite navigation thats because costumers want to not because they lack the tech to develop them.

[shawn a]

Well, F-111 C/C, I know for a fact the Countach was faceted for a lower RCS, and I hear the canary yellow Diablos will come with RAM,and a plasma field for the same purpose!
 Kidding aside, it seems to me the more we get into computer-aided-design and modern ("simpler,cheaper,faster") production techniques, the result is a more complex design, and a slower and more trouble-prone production process. I'm not surprised that Sukhoi is encountering delays and setbacks.
Tell ya what- when I get to the Sukhoi exhibit at MAKS, I'll take a lot of photos, grab all the literature I can, and ask questions that can't be answered while watching closely the faces of those I question.
Will you come visit me if I end up in Siberia?
Signed,
"anonymous"

[F-111 C/C]

That'll be great Shawn, I'd like to know what their answers will be. I'm so jealous of you going to the MAKS show! Someday perhaps. And yeah, I will visit you in Siberia if you get "sent away"!

[shawn a]

OK, F111C/C, lets figure out some "questions"
and remember, I'm "anonymous".
Shawn A

[F-111 C/C]

Ask anything and everything. I'll have a lot more questions for YOU when you get back about the logistics of the trip (how you got there and if there were any "hoops" you had to jump through, etc.). Thanks for the cool picture (take lots more) and be safe!

[valkyrian]

Well, gentlemen, my opinion on this :

True that it was a Russian scientist who first thought how to compute  the RCS of a body but they were stupid enough to ignore this discovery. Why? I don't know. Maybe they thought that reduced RCS was of secondary importance.
On the other hand, Americans (especially the genius Lockheed engineers) knew how to shape a low RCS aircraft (more or less) and had  already a magnificent SR-71 operational. So it is no coincidence that the russian discovery was picked up by a Lockheed mathematician who transformed the equations into a computer program (called ECHO). The only thing that kept them from creating a beautiful shape (i mean the F-117) was the lack of computer power that limited the computations only for flat areas (and not curved ones).

So, it is very logical to assume that every serious aeronautical company can design for stealth. Computers are far more capable now, not to mention cheap as well. What is still expensive is the process to intergrate the stealth requirements to other operational requirements. Stealth just adds to the complexity of the design process. And i think that only the (once) mighty US economy could built such a plane. Had the requirement for thr F-22 appeared this hard times, even the Americans wouldn't do that.


RAM materials? they add weight, hard to maintain and costly. So, noone is going to base his/her design on RAM alone...

Plasma stealth? OK i am not a physicist, but i imagine a Su-35 with plasma stealth  turned on as a very strong heat emitting object.
I also believe that history repeats itself. It took the Russians nearly 20 years to make the antidote of the F-15, but they finally did it. It may take them a little more before they do something for the F-22.

In the meanwhile the rest of us, will always wonder how many Flankers can u shoot down with 183 F-22 and if the F-22 worths its money.

[F-111 C/C]

Good to hear from you Valkyrian! I totally agree with you. Remeber the F-117 is 'first generation' stealth which is already obsolete (flat, multi-facet). The B-2, F-22, F-35, etc. are '2nd generation' with more curved, smoother surfaces. The reason is exactly as you stated, they built what they could with the computer technology available. That being said, IMAGINE what 'Black Programs' are working on now!