Ok, since the other thread was about an article of the F-35 in Code One magazine, discussing the EFA vs. L2 would be a hijacking, so I open this new thread for
discussion (not rage against the machines
) and I hope a nice informative thread develops out of it. So, to make the start, Webmaster made some points on the other thread, I give my points on the thread here
ou are comparing total programme cost for the RAF with early unit cost estimates for the USAF? That $40-45 estimate is from the time the market size was expected to be 5000 aircraft, in what? FY97 dollars?
The US total cost for the JSF has already risen to nearly $300 billion. With a requirement of 2400-2500 aircraft. That's 120-125 million per aircraft, with 1600-1700 of them being the least expensive F-35A. In 2000-2001, the pricetag for export customers was already estimated at 85-90 million per aircraft. In 2005-2006, it was 100 million. Let's see where the off-the-shelf price will end, as well as the cost for the USAF.
You can't even get a new F-16 Block 40 for that. $40 million is what India thinks its Su-30MKIs cost, produced with cheaper labor, based on an existing design with existing engines and parts... reportedly Chavez paid the same for its less capable Su-30MKVs. The "affordable" Gripen has been selling at $80 million per aircraft (okay with support and what not), with development already paid for by Sweden.
By the way, cost per unit for the Raptor has already been upped to 180-200 million, since the last time USAF dropped it's order as far as I know. And the B-2 with it's highest 1-1.2 billion per piece estimates, has risen to a 2-2.1 billion estimate now more has become known about the development program's cost.
Now, since all contracts have different terms, and it's too early to tell how much they will eventually cost, I don't want to go on about this. But the $40-50 price tag is well dated. It is not going to be cheap! It's actually looking rather nasty, even the US account office calculations proved the estimated price already to be well exceeded. I think it was something like 20% per year?
You're right, it's better to compare when both have proven their capabilities and performance. But the same goes for their cost. Wink
Typhoon full A-S suite is scheduled for 2010. Currently Block 7 aircraft will get limited LGB capability. We'll see Typhoon with bombs over Afghanistan next year probably. That's still 5 years earlier than any JSF optimist might say, hehehe.
You're not serious about "drop what a B-52 can drop" I hope? Maybe 'could in theory drop' what a B-52 'does drop nowadays'?
Indeed, the Typhoon will fly on Afghanistan next year
But that's at least 6 years after any EFA pessimist would say too. :p
In any case, I don't think the 19 billion pounds is the total development cost of the aircraft since this is only what RAF paid for them. Italy, Germany and Austria will have to pay their own individual price tags as well. Still, I find this too much for an aircraft that out of the box does not pack a modern type of radar and stealth - active or passive. Their cost will even go higher if you have to upgrade them later to reach levels the F-35 will have by default - and at the same price tag at worse. I look at it like that:
1. The basic aircraft costs the price tag above
2. It doesn't have any features of the aircraft that will compete
3. You'll have to put them (and pay even more) later in their lives, when they'll be present by default. And we talk about big things here - modern radars, stealth, and even the basic A2G capability ! And of course, training for it additional to the basic training you will have given to the pilots - unless UK buys the aircraft to keep them in hangars for the next 4 years. Even then, the radar of the L2 will be better (americans have more experience and manufacturing tech than us unfortunately) good stealth, and much more space for improvements that the Typhoon won't have - remember, this is very limited on aircraft and the more you upgrade, the less it becomes.
Of course we can resort on the "And you think that country X that bought the
< one of the two aircraft goes here > is stupid ?", but this is futile too as for UK, Spain and Germany its an in-house product which will be complemented in some by the F-35, and Austria and S.Arabia haven't bombed anyone in their entire history. Their need is for point defense interceptors. The same goes for the F-35, countries buying it need bombing capabilities and they have/will have something else for real aerial warfighting
If in the future the need for super interceptors arises, and the Typhoon gets a good AESA radar and stealth, for sure my opinion will vastly change about it. Besides, right now I still wonder why we canceled those 60 aircraft - well not really, it's obvious, but my heart sank when we did lol. It's the same with the Mirage - a point interceptor with limited A2G capability - but as you see, I loveit
. The Typhoon is in the area of my "love interest", but we need to try harder as an european combat aircraft industry to make it really better than it's counterparts.
And indeed, I don't put the "what the B52 can drop" literally. But with the amount of SDBs it can carry, their precision and their power, it sure is more than anything we have today, short of a strategic bomber .And it's still stealthy, something the Strike Eagle is definitely not !
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