The Rafale still unloved

[tigershark]

Reading the below article made me think did the French price themselves out of sales or are pushing a unfinished product out the door too soon.   Did they make the Mirage 2000 series too good?   Logically if the Rafale is so good and such an improvement over the Mirage 2000-5 why haven't MK2000 owners went with the upgrade?   At least one Mirage 2000-5/9 user is oil heavy and can afford the upgrade.   A country like Greece who are slightly looking for a fighter could replace the Mirage 2000-5s in the fighter/interceptor role and as a attacker there Vipers, with one aircraft type.   What would Greece gain or lose in such a venture?   Would it give them a little edge over Turkey's many Vipers?   Another customer is Taiwan it seems like the perfect fit but I'm not sure if France can sell anymore weapons to Taiwan because Chinese pressure.   For Taiwan they would get a very good fighter/interceptor to deal with China's growing Flanker fleet plus there new J-10 fighters.   On paper at least the Rafale seems to be a good attacker now and could replace some of the older A/B model Vipers?   Other almost buyers have been Morocco, Libya, and Saudi Arabia can anybody give me there thoughts to why no sales?   Does anybody know if France ever tried to sell to Malaysia or Indonesia?   Both now Flanker users now are the French missing this region?   Other Pacific rim nations are Thailand, Vietnam, and Myanmar, the Vietnam I could understand the French not wanting to sell to.   

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=2850495&C=europe

[valkyrian]

You just opened Pandoras Box (about Greece)..i'll try to answer this later

[Globetrotter]

I think I've heard something about Switzerland too... but can't confirm

[tigershark]

Let’s do a little pre-discussing on the pro’s and cons of Greece buying the French made Rafale.   My friend Valkyrian and future Wing Leader who is from Greece will chime in when he can.
> I think since the Rafale is such a good fighters on paper at least it can truly replace the Mirage 2000-5 mk2/mk3 types in the Greece Air Force straight up. Take over the interceptor / fighter duties and be capably of carrying out attack missions at the same time. And perform these missions in a state of art modern platform that would carry over into the future for Greece very well.  I think for being Frances first signed export customer I think France should buy back the Mirage 2000-5 as part of the deal for purchasing the newer and more expensive Rafales.   I’m sure France could resell the Mirage 2000-5s to either Brazil or India.   Maybe Argentina would join in on the Mirage 2000-5’s bandwagon if the price was right.   Greece’s pilots and maintenance personnel I would assume would change over without much trouble to the new Rafales.   Some missiles and bombs, etc used on the Mirage 2000 can be used as well on the Rafale so new training cost shouldn’t be too high for the conversion.  Greece keeps there Vipers to stay NATO ready/happy and because the Viper is a good attack platform and does so many things well.   Too much has been invested in the Vipers to date and you get to keep AIM-120/9X missiles, plus other American made goodies.   Besides even if the Viper is rated a little behind the Rafale in air to air (f16net doesn’t think so) it’s still basically the same fighter Turkey flies so you don’t lose anything.  But a couple of things must be worked out for Greece to come out ahead.  France must buy back the Mirage 2000-5s to off-set the high prices for a Rafales late 80s design, France is going to have to suck it up.   It wouldn’t make sense to maintain Rafales and Mirage 2000-5s in the inceptor/fighter role, too costly.   You want the edge the Rafale gives you over Turkey’s Vipers or what’s the point right?   The Rafale’s attack or strike capabilities options is good to have but it’s the gravy because you got a fleet of Vipers that perform that type mission very well.  The final thing for Greece to work out is that Greece is getting the most advance model Rafale produced!   No buying the lesser models now and then the better ones in the future like the Typhoon’s T1/T2/T3.  Who would buy the T1 when the T3 is almost ready right!  I would want the good stuff now same goes for the Rafale.  Either Greece gets the best model produced or they take there money over to the Typhoon guys and demand the T3s.   Greece could sell the Mirage 2000-5s themselves and use the money toward the hot and flashy Typhoon T3s, maybe built on the end of the Saudi Arabia production run?   .   
 

[Globetrotter]

well, if Greece sold their M2000 to a lower price than brand new ones, I am sure Argentina would at least consider buying them. I heard rumors that the M2000 was on the top of the list of new aircrafts for the FAA, but it wasn´t bought due to its price....

And Brazil was thinking on adquiring (or even assembling in the country) some Rafales, so they wouldn´t be competitors for the used airplanes, I believe

[valkyrian]

Hi there to all and especially to nonpilot, who got himself into trouble and wrote a brilliant  lengthy post!!. The Rafale/EF-2000/F-35 debate is still going on here in Greece, not bcz we don't know what to buy (at least the Rafale/EF-2000 was being evaluated some years ago) but bcz our politicians wants to use this buy (several billions of euros) as a card in their game. Take example Turkey. They announce huge programms and everyone is running to make a bid. Back to us now....
Our airforce has made recently an investement in acquiring M2000-5 and by upgrading some older ones to the new standard. So i don't think that we we sell them back to dassault. The M2000 has been integrated very well in our defence system, and giving it away even for a more capable fighter will reduce our intercept capability for a long time.

Dassult would do anything to get us to buy rafales. Even when it was more than certain that we would buy Ef's, they brought their plane in the same airshow. When arriving Rafale put on a display, while the EF was warming its engines!!!! The unbelievable Frenches...
Now that we have delayed the new buy of the century for a while, Americans jumped in with the F-35, and as you all understand you don't dissapoint easily the Americans (personally just bcz the French have supported us far more than the US, i'd prefare Rafale). Even the Swedes have came and offering a real outsider the grippen.
The Vipers is our main fighter, it does everything well and we have some of the most capable versions -blk52. Since Turkey hasn't such a model, we have some advantages over them, but a totally new Rafale would give us a real edge. It will be an unknown quantity, that will give their mission planners a real headache. Sure thing this can be done and in the EF2000 case. This will not happen with the F-35.

A production line here would be something excellent, but as far as i know we luck this capability. Only some small parts, flaps, intakes etc we can make. We've lost the opportunity to set up a production line for the ef2000, but since no one besides the french has bought the rafale, we still have a chance, if we try real hard.

Rafale is a little more stalthy in front aspect than ef-2000, on the other hand the ef is little more maneuvrable, but rafale can perform better in a2g. So, i'd like to see them both. Ef as air defence rafale as a self escorted stealthy attacker....
Since we need to defend our current borders, we don't need a stealth bomber like the f-35.

[tigershark]

Hi valkyrian
So you have politicians in Greece too I see can't be as bad as the lot my country but that's another kind disguising.   I get a better understanding of Greece's situation.   If your Mirage 2000-5s were just upgraded they might be one of the more advance models produce and really not much need to get slightly better fighters.   Your air force seems to have enough right now with out going deeper into the red buying fighters only slightly better then what they have and still short of Turkeys future F-35s.    I would wait and see what's out unless some great deal drop in my lap.   Its like buying a sport car to drive to your country house on the nice open country roads the new goes 120 MPH but your current sports car only goes 110 MPH.   What are you gaining really better off buying something nice for the house.   The big deal or big cause to get the shinny new one just isn't there your Mirage 2000-5s will do fine.   Unless the government planned it five or six years ago and using them now I would wait.  javascript:void(0);
Grin

[valkyrian]

Hi nonpilot! We also have about 30 older M2000 equipped with super 530, a missile in the Sparrow class (but much better) wich requires continuous illumination by the carriers radar, so that M2000 aren't so effective in BVR as the new ones. When Turkey gets F-35s we will surely need to answer this, just in case........just in case....
I hope by then we will have either Rafale or Typhoon...funny thing, Rafale means "storm" Typhoon is Typhoon, so i guess Greece is going to buy...."strongs winds" at any case...

[tigershark]

Even if they get either the Typhoon or the Rafale it won't make much difference they won't see the F-35.   It won't come down to a turning dog fight it will be more like oh shit there's two missiles fired at from less then 15 miles away or less.   The F-35 pilot will do his best to stay out of eye sight and the fighter deal with a pair of deadly missiles pulling 35/40 Gs are almost point blank range.   An  AIM-120-5 or better by the time Turkey gets them will cover that distance in seconds giving the Rafale/ Typhoon pilots little escape time.   The Rafale/ Typhoon pilot might get a general idea which direction the missile is coming from but still only have seconds to react.   

[Globetrotter]

If I may... I would like to bring about a new matter:

Isn't the Rafale rather "unpowered"??

(At least that's why I prefer EF)

[tigershark]

You maybe be right about the engine I know the Mirage 2000 series was under powered.   I don' know the spec's off the top of my head why don't list both so we can compared the two.   I lean toward the EF2000 myself but will admit I don't a lot about either aircraft.   I would sit back and enjoy a good thread about these two fine but costly fighters.   

[Webmaster]

It's not really underpowered with the M88-3 engine, it's about the same as the Eurofighter. Only the prototypes were a bit underpowered, using F404 or earlier M-88s, but thrust-to-weight ratio was still better than the F-16.

Eurofighter has a bit more thrust, but it's also a bit heavier, at least compared to the Rafale M.