India and Russia join forces in "5th Gen figther development"

[WRCKid]

This is the story that I found, this is interesting considering that normally Russia has done development of new aircraft with China (that I've seen anyway, by all means if I am mistaken then do chime in)

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/india-russia-in-negotiations-re-nextgeneration-fighter-03133/

[tigershark]

I didn't touch this because India has a difficult time choosing a 3rd + or 4th generation fighter, the prof is six plus years and nothing.  I have read how difficult it was for Russia dealing with the Indians on the first rounds of Flanker productions.   One could look at it from two ways one there difficult the other they know what they want.   And India's Flanker are good flying machines and the MKI might be a little better then most Russian produced Flankers.   I just can't see this working out or working out quickly since any 5th generation work would be a solid ten years behind US current,if not more.   Time will tell I think I read about this and some pre-contracts or agreements were signed.   The webmaster would know more he knows everything.  Big smile face

[Webmaster]

WRCKid, pls name one Russia-China developed aircraft? I can't actually, only the Su-30MK3 maybe which appear to be in the bin now, and numerous examples of China producing Russian aircraft under license and then develop their own subversions. Or Russian tech knowledge being sold to the Chinese. But I haven't seen any co-developments?

I have to see how this will work out as well. I think it will more like Russia produces the fifth generation T-50, then "co-developes" an Indian version with some Western/Israeli components, and let HAL produce half of the IAF fleet.

I've only quickly scanned the article, but here's what I know. Indian-Russian fifth generation fighter talks started back in 2001. Now, the article seems to leave the MiG option open, while it's not. Russia has selected Sukhoi and what appears to be its T-50 design for it's relaunched PAK-FA program. Now, I think it is extremely unlikely that MiG's LMFS proposal will make it, although in 2005 this one seemed to be the 5th gen Russian-Indian plan. However Sukhoi and probably the Russian government have been pressing the T-50 concept to India ever since, and it seems Sukhoi reached some sort of an agreement on the PMI (Future Multifunctional Fighter) with India last year for these latest intergovernmental agreement. Now, it's the Sukhoi OKB and KnAAPO/NAPO, not Irkut... maybe they don't know about dealing with the Indians yet, on the other hand with such a big multi-billion project, the bosses will just say: make it work. And you can bet on it that that isn't just the Sukhoi boss, you now have the OAK head, and he'll be told by Putin what to do...so...

Anyway, my thoughts: PAK-FA first flight planned for 2009, with first stage versions to roll off production line in 2010 (hehe, we'll see). Second stage aircraft with definitive configuration to enter production in 2015. So if India wants new fighters in 2018-2025, they could have some co-developed 2nd stage aircraft. It's kinda like the JSF project, you join 10 years before you need them to get a say in the development and some workshare. In the end, the other nation will have had the upper hand in decision making, you don't get full tech transfer, and the orders and workshare are not as big as hoped, plus dev delays and low initial production rates will mean it will be more expensive and later.

Should India join? It's their best chance at getting a customized fifth generation fighter within 10-15 years.

It doesn't matter whether it's ten years behind US currently, as the US can't/won't offer a fifth generation to India within ten years, I reckon. Plus, it doesn't need to be better than a US fifth generation fighter until Pakistan gets that or China have outdone the Russians by then.

[tigershark]

I almost want to say I told you so because this will never work out but I won't.     The one thing about this this that does interests me is the fact that India wanted to do this with Russia in the first place.   There must be some pre-done work or good building blocks/program started or something to India to say ok lets try it together.  Other wise they would have just done themselves right India has a very advance aerospace program and personnel so to me something had to be there, just my two cent.
 
 Indian AF Faults Fighter Pact With Russia
 By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI


NEW DELHI — Senior Indian Air Force officials say they are finding holes in the agreement their government signed Oct. 18 with Russia for joint production of a fifth-generation fighter aircraft.   The Air Force prefers to get involved in the project from the beginning of the design stage, but the Russians say the design of the proposed fifth-generation aircraft is frozen, Air Force sources said.   Being involved from the start would allow the Air Force to introduce its own requirements into the design process and to become familiar with the design of the aircraft they propose to fly, a senior service official said.
Another Air Force official agreed, noting that so far, even the service’s Staff Qualitative Requirements have not been finalized.
In addition, the Air Force says India should not contribute more than $2 billion to the joint project, but the proposed deal calls for an Indian contribution of about $5 billion — half of the estimated $10 billion cost, according to Air Force officials.   

Full story
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=3149759&C=airwar

[Webmaster]

How can you want to be involved from the start for only 2 billion investment in a program as this? They'll only reduce their effective share in requirements/specification/development and production phases, if they don't fund it sufficiently.

Other wise they would have just done themselves right India has a very advance aerospace program and personnel so to me something had to be there, just my two cent.

They failed to produce a good engine for the LCA within time. They admit to having underestimated the difficulty of integrating its own components in the Il-38SD project. Every other upgrade program has had delays on the Indian part. LCA is hugely delayed. Dhruv is even not fitting India's own requirements. I don't think developing a fifth generation fighter on their own will be a successful venture either. They still need either Russian or Israeli/French weapons and avionics integration, as well as an engine. It will be very costly and delayed forever. Also I am not sure that India possesses anything near the level of tech knowledge neccessary for a FIFTH generation fighter.

They want in because of the success of the Su-30MKI, a version which is according to IAF "co-developed" and a huge success.

Russia is moving too fast for India plus India is not ready for full co-development.

[tigershark]

You know web master I agree with you I'm changing the way I think of Indian tech.   I forget that without the Israeli and French systems built into MKI Flanker.   Russia is going to development a 5th generation aircraft with or without India's money.   I still would like to see a couple of tons lighter Flanker with the AL-41 engines but that's another story.