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Author Topic: Your guess on PAK FA?  (Read 13691 times)

Offline valkyrian

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Your guess on PAK FA?
« on: August 12, 2008, 09:44:23 AM »
Let's see what we think of the "vaporware" PAK FA. How do you think its going to be like? FSW, trapezoidal, delta, biplane, triplane, whatever......will it be a direct equivelant to the F-22 or to the F-35?

Electronics equipment : i think it will be inferior to the F-22. This is a tradition with all Russian aircrafts. For some reason they lack behind western technology in electronics, though their software capabilities offset somehow the lack of processing power. And since, both Russia and India cannot compete with the cash flow the Americans spent on their weapons, i don't think this will change.

Performance : On the other hand, i strongly believe, that in terms of performance the PAK FA will be at least equall or better to the F-22. They already know how to design a supermaneuvrable fighter (Flankers), they have explored for over a decade the post stall flight regions and they routinely "violate" the pre stall flight envelope with maneuvres such as cobra. They also know how to make a engine immune to any attitude the aircraft may fly, and that is also long before americans.

Stealth : Sure thing, the theory of how to measure a surface's RCS was made by a Russian and Russians were always masters on mathematics. This theory has been improved, and along with the todays supercomputers (far better than what Lockheed used back in the 90's to shape the F-22) should make the task easier. But, one thing remains unchanged, you need a huge amount of money, to build it and test it. The russian thinking dictates that a fighter won't live enough in case of a war and thats why they prefer cheap fighters built in numbers, so a proper stealth effort seems like a luxury for them. They also have no experience ( at least they have never present something stealthy) with such technology, so i don't think that they are going to build something better. Maybe they will equall the Raptor in that field, but not better it.

 

Offline SukhoiLover

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Re: Your guess on PAK FA?
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2008, 03:55:03 PM »
Let's see what we think of the "vaporware" PAK FA. How do you think its going to be like? FSW, trapezoidal, delta, biplane, triplane, whatever......will it be a direct equivelant to the F-22 or to the F-35?

Electronics equipment : i think it will be inferior to the F-22. This is a tradition with all Russian aircrafts. For some reason they lack behind western technology in electronics, though their software capabilities offset somehow the lack of processing power. And since, both Russia and India cannot compete with the cash flow the Americans spent on their weapons, i don't think this will change.

Performance : On the other hand, i strongly believe, that in terms of performance the PAK FA will be at least equall or better to the F-22. They already know how to design a supermaneuvrable fighter (Flankers), they have explored for over a decade the post stall flight regions and they routinely "violate" the pre stall flight envelope with maneuvres such as cobra. They also know how to make a engine immune to any attitude the aircraft may fly, and that is also long before americans.

Stealth : Sure thing, the theory of how to measure a surface's RCS was made by a Russian and Russians were always masters on mathematics. This theory has been improved, and along with the todays supercomputers (far better than what Lockheed used back in the 90's to shape the F-22) should make the task easier. But, one thing remains unchanged, you need a huge amount of money, to build it and test it. The russian thinking dictates that a fighter won't live enough in case of a war and thats why they prefer cheap fighters built in numbers, so a proper stealth effort seems like a luxury for them. They also have no experience ( at least they have never present something stealthy) with such technology, so i don't think that they are going to build something better. Maybe they will equall the Raptor in that field, but not better it.

First of all, i wouldn´t call it "vaporware". Taking in consideration that the Russian Air Force is eager to replace the Fulcrum and the Flanker, and that the Russian military forces in general are anxious for modernization and improvement ( a good example of this is the new carrier project for the Russian Navy ), i´m pretty sure that the thing will enter service with the Russian Air Force, the question is when? The prototype is scheduled to fly in 2009 and to enter in service by 2013, lets see if it stays within this deadline. About the shape, etc, i really don´t know, and i really don´t care about it, as far as it has a good performance.

Electronics equipment:  http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2008-04.html .

Performance: Valkyrian said it all, i guess the main difference to other Russian fighters will be the ability to supercruise ( although it is stated that the Su-35 BM is able to supercruise, i think that will only happen in future version with the Al-41F: http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Supercruise.html ) .

Stealth: Mr.Pyotr Yakovlevich Ufimtsev was the Russian scientist valkyrian was talking  about. I believe the PAK-FA will make use of stealth through shaping, like the F-22, F-35, F-117, and B-2, and will also make use of all the achievements of the Russians in RAM coating.
Basically, it has the potential to be at least as stealthy as the F-22 or F-35.

P.S- Theres also the so called Plasma stealth which, supposedly, with a 100kg generator is capable of reducing the RCS by 20db. Well, even if the Russians take this technologie seriously, theres still a huge problem: the fact that the airflow would remove the plasma shield at higher rate than the one at which  it is formed. So, i guess the PAK-FA won´t use such thing, even if it is true.
http://sukhoitribute.blogspot.com/

English version: http://sukhoitributeenglish.blogspot.com/


Pavel be proud of your legacy!!!!

Offline iluveagles

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Re: Your guess on PAK FA?
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2008, 10:15:30 AM »
The PAK FA is just an artists impression of what some 5th Gen Russian fighter might look like at this point. Until they start flying something that actually demonstrates the capabilities suggested, its nothing at all. Just an idea, nothing more for the time being.

Offline SukhoiLover

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Re: Your guess on PAK FA?
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2008, 09:45:50 PM »
http://www.knaapo.ru/eng/index.wbp

Press on combat aircraft, see what appears on the far left...

I guess that means the KnAAPO is the one that is going to do it, i bet Irkut is not very happy with that.
http://sukhoitribute.blogspot.com/

English version: http://sukhoitributeenglish.blogspot.com/


Pavel be proud of your legacy!!!!

Offline tigershark

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Re: Your guess on PAK FA?
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2008, 11:19:47 PM »
Hi SukhoiLover
I went to the site but don't see any place that says "Combat aircraft"? 

I still can find any real proof that Russia has the capabilities to produce a 5th generation aircraft.  I admit I am beaten down longer then you by age with all the Russian promises but can't seem to be able to sink my teeth into any real information. 

It just doesn't seem like Russia government is truly behind their defense industries to stay with these projects and fund them through to completion. 

Offline SukhoiLover

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Re: Your guess on PAK FA?
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2008, 03:00:15 PM »
Hi SukhoiLover
I went to the site but don't see any place that says "Combat aircraft"? 

I still can find any real proof that Russia has the capabilities to produce a 5th generation aircraft.  I admit I am beaten down longer then you by age with all the Russian promises but can't seem to be able to sink my teeth into any real information. 

It just doesn't seem like Russia government is truly behind their defense industries to stay with these projects and fund them through to completion. 

Open the link, on the main page, there is a picture of Superjet on the left and Su-35 on the right, press the Su-35.
http://sukhoitribute.blogspot.com/

English version: http://sukhoitributeenglish.blogspot.com/


Pavel be proud of your legacy!!!!

Offline Stealthflanker

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Re: Your guess on PAK FA?
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2008, 04:21:36 PM »
my Pakfa..simple

my 3D Models


or maybe if Russians think about more stealth



my only concern for PAKFA

"Is it optimized against Metric Wave Band RADAR ?" like Nebo SVU or Vostok or Lockheed Martin's "Silent Sentry"


Offline shawn a

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Re: Your guess on PAK FA?
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2008, 04:42:59 AM »
Stealthflanker,
Beautiful designs, especially the "YE-10". It seems that with computer flight software a brick could be made to fly if it had powerful enough engines.
Your 2nd design would have problems at high angles of attack, with the intakes where they are.
That's more like the B-2, where high angles of attack are not needed or used, unless you want to crash one on Guam.
Sarcasm aside, your first drawing looks a lot like Sukhoi's released preliminary drawings of the PAK-FA.
Personally, I think steath is an attribute that will somehow be comprimised in the near or midterm future-how, I don't know. I'm sure everyone is working on that.
Before radar (I guess that's WWI) planes could approach a target undetected until spotted visually, or heard. I think I saw some photos of Viet-Cong style trumpet-shaped listening devices used in WWI to get a general idea of where enemy planes were approaching. (The Viet-Cong actually carved trumpet-horn shaped caves into hills to hear the Hueys coming)
The Soviets were quite good at innovative solutions to their technology gap, and I'm sure any PAK-FA deficiencies would be made up through such innovation. In addition, the technology gap is now so narrow in some areas that it is effectively negated through novel approaches as demonstrated by the Serbians.
The 117 was based on faceting technology to reflect whatever radar was reflected in any direction except that from which it had come. It also had radar absorbing coatings which reduced that reflected energy dramatically. It worked-up to a point. I've never had a 117 pilot tell me (without offering to kill me immediately) about any air to air capability. The 117 looks as if it's also designed to reflect any radar energy coming from above, as from an AWACS.
The 22 looks like a 5th generation airframe should, so most of it's stealth probably comes from improved radar absorbing materials plus a subtle form of shaping of anything that might reflect more radar energy than the RAM-coated parts.
Sukhoi is no slouch, and Russian oil income is going to change the Russian's ability to spend money.
As one of my recent fortune-cookies said "Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst"
The best hope is for the human race to get over this war crap, and use all of our incredible technologies to better our situation on this planet.
No, I don't think that will happen soon. That's why we're all preparing for the worst.
In my opinion, the PAK-FA will be an extremely capable opponent for an F-22

Offline valkyrian

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Re: Your guess on PAK FA?
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2008, 08:00:56 PM »
Considering the orld's current economical situation, who will spent on silver bullets?

 



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