MILAVIA Forum - Military Aviation Discussion Forum

Author Topic: At last the PAK-FA  (Read 13431 times)

Offline Webmaster

  • MILAVIA Webmaster
  • Administrator
  • General of Flight
  • *******
  • Posts: 2843
  • Country: nl
Re: At last the PAK-FA
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2010, 05:14:34 AM »
I haven't fully studied it yet, but the picture which F-111C/C posted shows that your scheme is incorrect. Seems to be two belly bays between the nacelles, nothing in the nacelles, it's all gear. However I can see there's a fairing below the wing to the nacelle. Are they side-bays á la F-22? Seems cramped though.

The internal "T" desgination dates back to the days when the Sukhoi OKB was still known as OKB-51, I suppose. T stood for treugol'noye krylo (delta wings) and S for strelovidnoye krylo (swept wings). Which made perfect sense in the days of the Su-7/Su-9. But it didn't work out as planned when the S-6 concept became the T-6 with delta, but then got the variable wings instead but remained designated T-6 (Su-24). I guess from there on (about) T became the letter for air force jets, while the S became used for pretty much all the other stuff they produced.

About the service designation, it used to be decided by the MOD, but not anymore. Fighters got uneven numbers, and the export versions and others got even numbers. They will probably continue it as tradition, they did so far. It's up to the companies now, so who knows. They named their S-49 trainer the Su-49. So Su-50 is not that unlikely. But Su-51 is the next uneven number up I suppose. Although a re-use of Su-37 and Su-47 is also possible. But if they like the original Su-37/Su-47 to be remembered, and possibly they consider their Su-x7 fighters their greatest achievements, then maybe this will be the Su-57. But if the air force still has a say in it, then I think Su-37 is most likely!
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 05:21:02 AM by FF Admin »
  • Interests: Su-15, Su-27, Tu-22, Tornado, RNLAF
Niels Hillebrand
MILAVIA Webmaster

Offline SukhoiLover

  • Fighter Ace
  • *****
  • Posts: 268
  • Country: pt
Re: At last the PAK-FA
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2010, 07:02:07 PM »
I agree with you Webby, an Su-X7 is the most likely one, however using the Su-37 designation again is something that i don´t believe.

Calling it the Su-47 II or something like that is also unlikely.

Honestly i think it will be the Su-57  :) :)
http://sukhoitribute.blogspot.com/

English version: http://sukhoitributeenglish.blogspot.com/


Pavel be proud of your legacy!!!!

Offline shawn a

  • Hero of Flight
  • ******
  • Posts: 898
  • Country: us
Re: At last the PAK-FA
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2010, 01:00:40 AM »
So--When can I buy a ride in one. Maybe MAKS '11?
Sukhoi, where did you get those "speculations" about the weapon loadout? It looks like 3 long range, 6 medium range, and 2 short range...That's ALOT!!! The -22s stealthy load is 6 amraam, and 2 aim-9X.
My Question is, are the Russkies capable of putting those AESA radars on leading edge panels and wingtips? I don't know much about radar.
Another concern is..how soon will the chinese illegally copy these planes?

Offline SukhoiLover

  • Fighter Ace
  • *****
  • Posts: 268
  • Country: pt
Re: At last the PAK-FA
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2010, 10:31:40 PM »
So--When can I buy a ride in one. Maybe MAKS '11?
Sukhoi, where did you get those "speculations" about the weapon loadout? It looks like 3 long range, 6 medium range, and 2 short range...That's ALOT!!! The -22s stealthy load is 6 amraam, and 2 aim-9X.
My Question is, are the Russkies capable of putting those AESA radars on leading edge panels and wingtips? I don't know much about radar.
Another concern is..how soon will the chinese illegally copy these planes?
Its from a blog. But they are incorrect. Currently some state 6 new generation  R-77  on ventral bay and 2 new generation R-74 on the underwing bays.
Have no idea if they will put the AESA on the leading edges and don´t know when the chinese will come up with a J-"Something"

« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 10:57:53 PM by SukhoiLover »
http://sukhoitribute.blogspot.com/

English version: http://sukhoitributeenglish.blogspot.com/


Pavel be proud of your legacy!!!!

Offline SukhoiLover

  • Fighter Ace
  • *****
  • Posts: 268
  • Country: pt
Re: At last the PAK-FA
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2010, 10:57:02 PM »
Air Power Australia already released a report assessing the PAK-FA.
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2010-01.html

Its quite interesting, definatly a must read.

Here are some quotes that call attention:

"As the F-35 also lacks the performance to engage or escape, repeated ‘freebie’ shots from the PAK-FA could inflict high losses.  Expect the exchange rate to be of the order of 4:1 in favour of the PAK-FA, possibly much higher.”


“The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter struggles to survive against the conventional Su-35BM Flanker, with only its -30 dBSM class front sector stealth keeping it alive in some BVR combat situations. Against even a -20 dBSM class PAK-FA, the F-35 falls within the survivability black hole, into which US legacy fighters such as the F-16C/E, F-15C/E and F/A-18A-F have already fallen.”

"The outcome will be difficult to predict as it will depend a lot on the combat skills of the pilots and the capabilities of the missiles for end-game kills. There is no guarantee that the F-22 will prevail every time.”


"While the basic shaping observed on this first prototype of the PAK-FA will deny it the  critical all-aspect stealth performance of the F-22 in BVR air combat and deep penetration, its extreme manoeuvrability/controllability design features, which result in extreme agility, give it the potential to become the most lethal and survivable fighter ever built for air combat engagements."
http://sukhoitribute.blogspot.com/

English version: http://sukhoitributeenglish.blogspot.com/


Pavel be proud of your legacy!!!!

Offline SukhoiLover

  • Fighter Ace
  • *****
  • Posts: 268
  • Country: pt
Re: At last the PAK-FA
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2010, 11:01:44 PM »
"Even if the PAK-FA design were only to attain half of the effectiveness of the F-22A Raptor, it will still yield BVR exchange rates of the order of 50:1 against legacy fighters."

"Consider a conventional BVR tail chase engagement geometry against an operational PAK-FA derivative air dominance fighter. A conventional fighter with legacy teen series class aerodynamic design and performance, an example being the F-35A Joint Strike Fighter, is positioned behind the PAK-FA, at a range of ~50 nm, with its X-band multimode radar locked and tracking, assuming that the PAK-FA aircraft retains the high signature aft fuselage and nozzle design.
The use of extreme agility design features would permit the PAK-FA derivative to perform reversal manoeuvres faster than conventional fighter designs, causing  the pursuing fighter to  lose radar lock as the PAK-FA presents its VLO class nose aspect to the pursuing fighter. Within seconds the PAK-FA can establish a weapons lock, as the weapon system will have established the position and identity of the pursuing fighter during the immediately preceding tailchase. The pilot of the initially pursuing fighter will then be presented with a salvo of mixed seeker equipped BVR missiles closing at high speed on a reciprocal heading."
« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 11:35:10 PM by SukhoiLover »
http://sukhoitribute.blogspot.com/

English version: http://sukhoitributeenglish.blogspot.com/


Pavel be proud of your legacy!!!!

Offline Webmaster

  • MILAVIA Webmaster
  • Administrator
  • General of Flight
  • *******
  • Posts: 2843
  • Country: nl
Re: At last the PAK-FA
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2010, 02:13:57 PM »
My Question is, are the Russkies capable of putting those AESA radars on leading edge panels and wingtips? I don't know much about radar.
Another concern is..how soon will the chinese illegally copy these planes?

Yeah, they have that L-band leading edge radar unit in testing. And in case you're thinking under development means nothing happens, it is the same company that provides the nose radar, so money will be coming in. Plus it will be offered on the MKI, so India might be able to upgrade their Flankers with it. The diagram is of course wishful thinking, the units aren't that big, and I think it's ridiculous to think there's room in the outer edges for another Ka-band units as well as X-band. The person that did the drawing probably never looked at a fighter's wing, it's thin. The transmitters don't need much room of course, but if you can only place a couple of them, you can't really say its AESA anymore, as there won't be much of an array. Also there's the power and weight issue. I don't see any reason for adding Ka-band as well. It will be good with the nose radar, tailcone radar and the leading edge ones. I don't see any reason to put additional units all over the thing. And it would need a lot of computing power, far more than the Russians can put into it. It seems sometimes it is forgotten that this thing is not built to be undefeatable or win some innovation medal, but to equip the future Russian Air Force with a decent amount of them.

The reason that it's L-band is probably related to feasability. Some claim it will be better to detect stealth planes, I think that's BS. You need a much lower frequency, so far when defeating stealth was talked about the term ultra-low was used. L-band is hardly anything to brag about. I should quote this but can't remember where I read it, I think it was a nice statement "The Russians aren't the first to use L-band, but as ever, they are the first to claim they can perform miracles with it." The reason it needs these units is to expand the hemisphere coverage. The nose radar is only electronically steered, the array is fixed unlike some other AESA designs. That's where these leading edge arrays come in handy. Its range will be far less than the main unit, and it's probably just search that it will perform, for situational awareness. L-band requires less power, less processing, but has far lower resolution. So the argument that stealth planes optimized against X-band frequencies produce a bigger RCS in L-band, is irrelevant, because if it didn't, they'd be better off mechanically steering the array of the nose radar. However I suppose that as stealth planes won't show up on the RWR, you need to look for them for your SA. The main reason is course that the fixed nose array, means simpler design, maintenance, and less weight. And a somewhat larger diameter possible, means more electronically steered (sub)units... Maybe having the ability to scan in an additional band will improve jamming resistance as well. I wonder though, what it will for the detectability of the PAK-FA itself... can't be good. The addition of these units, actually are more of a sign of the limitations of the IRST and the main radar unit.

Like the tailcone radar, it's likely that this should be seen as an optional item. PAK-FA is a staged project, and I don't expect Phase I aircraft to have them.

The F-35 will naturally look less capable when you exaggerate the capabilities of everything else...


Your second question. Russia / China are strengthening, or rather, restoring their military cooperation. The Su-33 and Su-35 are offered to China, and even the Su-34. For the Su-35 license production is on the table. If this works out, China might get access to the PAK-FA. However, problem, India sees China as potential enemy (not as likely as Pakistan, but China is of course a bigger threat). With India in the PAK-FA development, I wonder if that gives them the power to veto sales to China. I doubt it!! That would then surely mean the end for Russian-Indo military cooperation, and then we'll be likely to see more Indian orders going to US companies. Time will tell.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2010, 02:36:45 PM by FF Admin »
  • Interests: Su-15, Su-27, Tu-22, Tornado, RNLAF
Niels Hillebrand
MILAVIA Webmaster

Offline F-111 C/C

  • Hero of Flight
  • ******
  • Posts: 634
  • Country: us
Re: At last the PAK-FA
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2010, 04:38:13 PM »
Don't you think that the assessment of the capabilities of the PAK-FA by Ausairpower is pretty optimistic for a plane that has only flown a couple of times and with none of its 'special' equipment and engines? I mean it's one thing to speculate about a plane's performance based on its information but when I read this they speak as though it's already happened; a guarantee. Some of their claims are pretty bold and they're deciding the outcomes of combat between 2 aircraft that are both unproven operationally. Maybe it's me but I find it irresponsible to state things 'as fact' on something that is still SO FAR from reality right now. Maybe the PAK-FA will be the greatest plane ever made, but at least wait until that happens before declaring it so.
Wars are won by carrying the 'heavy iron' downtown!

Offline Webmaster

  • MILAVIA Webmaster
  • Administrator
  • General of Flight
  • *******
  • Posts: 2843
  • Country: nl
Re: At last the PAK-FA
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2010, 06:32:30 PM »
I think almost all assessments by Ausairpower are skewed. As they are more threat assessments, I'm not sure optimistic is the word. But you are right, and that's what I meant with my statement about the F-35.

But uhm, I suppose you were asking SukhoiLover....
  • Interests: Su-15, Su-27, Tu-22, Tornado, RNLAF
Niels Hillebrand
MILAVIA Webmaster

Offline F-111 C/C

  • Hero of Flight
  • ******
  • Posts: 634
  • Country: us
Re: At last the PAK-FA
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2010, 06:42:36 PM »
Just making a general observation in line with your F-35 comment :)
Wars are won by carrying the 'heavy iron' downtown!

Offline SukhoiLover

  • Fighter Ace
  • *****
  • Posts: 268
  • Country: pt
Re: At last the PAK-FA
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2010, 07:49:02 PM »
I had my doubts, but i now i think it has the potentional to be the best fighter ever. However, a lot depends on how the Russians will manage the program.

About APA, i think that while most "experts" tend to be quite optimistic and even arrogant on their assessements on Russian military technoloogy, APA tends to be the guys who assess things from the worst case scenario.

Is that incorrect or beeing biased? Hell no!

In my personal opinion, i think that every military commander should think like that, History has shown us that underestimating a potential threat or beeing to optimistic about a potential threat might lead to very bad results.


So, i respect APA because they can see the true potential of things. But i repeat, POTENTIAL, it doesn´t mean that everything they say will happen but, you must admit that their approach to threats is far from beeing wrong.
http://sukhoitribute.blogspot.com/

English version: http://sukhoitributeenglish.blogspot.com/


Pavel be proud of your legacy!!!!

Offline lucciano85m

  • Pilot
  • **
  • Posts: 25
Re: At last the PAK-FA
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2011, 11:25:35 PM »
IAF, The fifth-generation fighter aircraft will enter service in 2017

The Indian Air Force (IAF) will induct a total of 214 single and twin-seater variants of the advanced Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) being developed jointly by India and Russia. The fighters are likely to be inducted by 2017.

"We are looking for 166 single seater and 48 twin-seater versions of the aircraft," IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne said in New Delhi.



http://www.xairforces.net/newsd.asp?newsid=552&newst=13

 



AVIATION TOP 100 - www.avitop.com click to vote for MILAVIA