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Military Aviation => Military Aviation News => Topic started by: SukhoiLover on January 29, 2010, 03:33:21 PM

Title: At last the PAK-FA
Post by: SukhoiLover on January 29, 2010, 03:33:21 PM
http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20100129/157712091.html
Title: Re: At last the PAK-FA
Post by: F-111 C/C on January 29, 2010, 04:21:55 PM
I thought I'd never see the day! Looks cool (not suprisingly a lot like the F-22). I can't wait for more pictures/videos.
Title: Re: At last the PAK-FA
Post by: F-111 C/C on January 29, 2010, 04:27:21 PM
Here's some footage:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XqwDEU0fus
Title: Re: At last the PAK-FA
Post by: SukhoiLover on January 29, 2010, 04:27:42 PM
I thought I'd never see the day! Looks cool (not suprisingly a lot like the F-22). I can't wait for more pictures/videos.

I disagree with you.

It is actually more similar to the YF-23 than the F-22.

Here is a video :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPHzCqSJ5xY
Title: Re: At last the PAK-FA
Post by: F-111 C/C on January 29, 2010, 04:42:37 PM
Yeah, I can see the YF-23 but I was using operational aircraft as a comparison.
From all that I read, most 'experts' feel the Russians 'fell short' in their attempts to make this plane a TRUE Stealth aircraft. Apparently it's RCS is nearly the same as the Su-27 based aircraft and it does not appear to have any serrated edges on it's weapons doors/landing gear doors/etc. There is also concern about the intakes and bottom fuselage presenting noticeable 'returns'.
Do you know if this plane used the 117S engines or the original version of the AL-41? Last I heard the 117S (AL-41F1A) wasn't close to operational yet.
Title: Re: At last the PAK-FA
Post by: SukhoiLover on January 29, 2010, 06:08:30 PM
It has been kept in total secret till today, so i think it is soon to take any conclusions.

Besides, this is still the prototype, the Su-27 that you see today is very different from the first prototype, so, the PAK-FA that will be in service in 2015 should be different from the one you see here. The same thing happened with the F-22. The YF-22 and the F-22 are different, the design has been perfected, so, i have no doubts that the PAK-FA of 2015 will be just as capable as any F-35 or F-22 that we see by then.

About the engines, yes, its true, the engines that will equip the production aircraft are still not ready, this happened before with many other Russian aircraft like the MiG-21 or even the Su-27 which were tested with "rented" engines. The radar, as far as i know, is still beeing finished and certainly there are many other details to be adressed.

But anyway, to all of those who called the PAK-FA "VAPORWARE" i say:
-IN YOUR FACE!!!! ;D ;D
Title: Re: At last the PAK-FA
Post by: SukhoiLover on January 29, 2010, 06:25:57 PM
Just popped into my mind:

-Can anyone spot the cannon bay?
Title: Re: At last the PAK-FA
Post by: F-111 C/C on January 30, 2010, 05:18:16 PM
Here's a cool picture that I haven't seen until today!
Title: Re: At last the PAK-FA
Post by: Webmaster on January 30, 2010, 06:55:37 PM
Good, little late, but not too bad. Now, let's see how quick they can get it tested and into production.

Hopefully, everybody is now convinced PAK-FA is a real project. Still no garantees for the future, but it looks like this will make it as it's not too unconventional, merge the F-22 and a Su-27 and you get this.

Take another look at some YF-23 pictures, I don't think it looks like it at all! Your brain just says it looks like the F-22, but somewhat different, so it must look like another thing that looks like the F-22, brain says that'd be the YF-23 then... it's very different!

Sure, it will end up looking a bit different. But don't expect too much change yet, it's a two-staged program, so I think there will only be little refinements, the bigger changes will be postponed for the second stage. Also, a lot of basic components won't change until stage II.

F-111C/C, I'll get back to you on the 117S, it should have finished all testing now or about too, but I don't know. I agree that it probably is not in production yet, and I don't expect it to until next year. On the T-50, they are definately not the "orignal AL-41", it's more likely they are AL-31F, that's probably what you meant. But like I said, no idea and I'll see what I can find. Like SukhoiLover said, it's pretty normal to rely on proven, baseline engines for the first prototype, especially for Russian manufacturers, even if there were substantial differences. The 117S is pretty much an uprated AL-31F, so no problems this time, I don't see a reason for big T-10 like (Su-27) changes... On the other hand, 117S test engines might already be at a point in testing that they were fitted... pre-production examples.

SukhoiLover, no, but that doesn't mean it won't get a gun...

I don't see much room for internal weapon carriage...
 
Title: Re: At last the PAK-FA
Post by: SukhoiLover on January 31, 2010, 12:05:46 AM
(http://www.aereo.jor.br/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/pak-fa-28.08.2009.jpg)

If that scheme is correct, then theres actually a lot of room.

(http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww73/zante_bucket/T-50sidefine.jpg)

Another thing, take a look at the second picture, is that an OLS behind the cockpit?
Title: Re: At last the PAK-FA
Post by: F-111 C/C on January 31, 2010, 01:07:34 AM
Why "T-50"? Is the 'T' like our 'Y' or 'X' for prototype/experimental? Will it become an Su-50?
Title: Re: At last the PAK-FA
Post by: SukhoiLover on January 31, 2010, 02:04:04 AM
Why "T-50"? Is the 'T' like our 'Y' or 'X' for prototype/experimental? Will it become an Su-50?

Maybe not.

The Su-27 was the T-10, so i guess that just because the PAK-FA is in-house codename T-50, it most likelly won´t be the Su-50. Besides, i´m not sure if there already a Sukhoi aerobatics plane with that designation.

What i´m really curious about is how NATO will codename it. I guess i´ll creat a poll for that!
Title: Re: At last the PAK-FA
Post by: Webmaster on January 31, 2010, 05:14:34 AM
I haven't fully studied it yet, but the picture which F-111C/C posted shows that your scheme is incorrect. Seems to be two belly bays between the nacelles, nothing in the nacelles, it's all gear. However I can see there's a fairing below the wing to the nacelle. Are they side-bays á la F-22? Seems cramped though.

The internal "T" desgination dates back to the days when the Sukhoi OKB was still known as OKB-51, I suppose. T stood for treugol'noye krylo (delta wings) and S for strelovidnoye krylo (swept wings). Which made perfect sense in the days of the Su-7/Su-9. But it didn't work out as planned when the S-6 concept became the T-6 with delta, but then got the variable wings instead but remained designated T-6 (Su-24). I guess from there on (about) T became the letter for air force jets, while the S became used for pretty much all the other stuff they produced.

About the service designation, it used to be decided by the MOD, but not anymore. Fighters got uneven numbers, and the export versions and others got even numbers. They will probably continue it as tradition, they did so far. It's up to the companies now, so who knows. They named their S-49 trainer the Su-49. So Su-50 is not that unlikely. But Su-51 is the next uneven number up I suppose. Although a re-use of Su-37 and Su-47 is also possible. But if they like the original Su-37/Su-47 to be remembered, and possibly they consider their Su-x7 fighters their greatest achievements, then maybe this will be the Su-57. But if the air force still has a say in it, then I think Su-37 is most likely!
Title: Re: At last the PAK-FA
Post by: SukhoiLover on January 31, 2010, 07:02:07 PM
I agree with you Webby, an Su-X7 is the most likely one, however using the Su-37 designation again is something that i don´t believe.

Calling it the Su-47 II or something like that is also unlikely.

Honestly i think it will be the Su-57  :) :)
Title: Re: At last the PAK-FA
Post by: shawn a on February 22, 2010, 01:00:40 AM
So--When can I buy a ride in one. Maybe MAKS '11?
Sukhoi, where did you get those "speculations" about the weapon loadout? It looks like 3 long range, 6 medium range, and 2 short range...That's ALOT!!! The -22s stealthy load is 6 amraam, and 2 aim-9X.
My Question is, are the Russkies capable of putting those AESA radars on leading edge panels and wingtips? I don't know much about radar.
Another concern is..how soon will the chinese illegally copy these planes?
Title: Re: At last the PAK-FA
Post by: SukhoiLover on February 24, 2010, 10:31:40 PM
So--When can I buy a ride in one. Maybe MAKS '11?
Sukhoi, where did you get those "speculations" about the weapon loadout? It looks like 3 long range, 6 medium range, and 2 short range...That's ALOT!!! The -22s stealthy load is 6 amraam, and 2 aim-9X.
My Question is, are the Russkies capable of putting those AESA radars on leading edge panels and wingtips? I don't know much about radar.
Another concern is..how soon will the chinese illegally copy these planes?
Its from a blog. But they are incorrect. Currently some state 6 new generation  R-77  on ventral bay and 2 new generation R-74 on the underwing bays.
Have no idea if they will put the AESA on the leading edges and don´t know when the chinese will come up with a J-"Something"

Title: Re: At last the PAK-FA
Post by: SukhoiLover on February 24, 2010, 10:57:02 PM
Air Power Australia already released a report assessing the PAK-FA.
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2010-01.html

Its quite interesting, definatly a must read.

Here are some quotes that call attention:

"As the F-35 also lacks the performance to engage or escape, repeated ‘freebie’ shots from the PAK-FA could inflict high losses.  Expect the exchange rate to be of the order of 4:1 in favour of the PAK-FA, possibly much higher.”


“The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter struggles to survive against the conventional Su-35BM Flanker, with only its -30 dBSM class front sector stealth keeping it alive in some BVR combat situations. Against even a -20 dBSM class PAK-FA, the F-35 falls within the survivability black hole, into which US legacy fighters such as the F-16C/E, F-15C/E and F/A-18A-F have already fallen.”

"The outcome will be difficult to predict as it will depend a lot on the combat skills of the pilots and the capabilities of the missiles for end-game kills. There is no guarantee that the F-22 will prevail every time.”


"While the basic shaping observed on this first prototype of the PAK-FA will deny it the  critical all-aspect stealth performance of the F-22 in BVR air combat and deep penetration, its extreme manoeuvrability/controllability design features, which result in extreme agility, give it the potential to become the most lethal and survivable fighter ever built for air combat engagements."
Title: Re: At last the PAK-FA
Post by: SukhoiLover on February 24, 2010, 11:01:44 PM
"Even if the PAK-FA design were only to attain half of the effectiveness of the F-22A Raptor, it will still yield BVR exchange rates of the order of 50:1 against legacy fighters."

"Consider a conventional BVR tail chase engagement geometry against an operational PAK-FA derivative air dominance fighter. A conventional fighter with legacy teen series class aerodynamic design and performance, an example being the F-35A Joint Strike Fighter, is positioned behind the PAK-FA, at a range of ~50 nm, with its X-band multimode radar locked and tracking, assuming that the PAK-FA aircraft retains the high signature aft fuselage and nozzle design.
The use of extreme agility design features would permit the PAK-FA derivative to perform reversal manoeuvres faster than conventional fighter designs, causing  the pursuing fighter to  lose radar lock as the PAK-FA presents its VLO class nose aspect to the pursuing fighter. Within seconds the PAK-FA can establish a weapons lock, as the weapon system will have established the position and identity of the pursuing fighter during the immediately preceding tailchase. The pilot of the initially pursuing fighter will then be presented with a salvo of mixed seeker equipped BVR missiles closing at high speed on a reciprocal heading."
Title: Re: At last the PAK-FA
Post by: Webmaster on February 25, 2010, 02:13:57 PM
My Question is, are the Russkies capable of putting those AESA radars on leading edge panels and wingtips? I don't know much about radar.
Another concern is..how soon will the chinese illegally copy these planes?

Yeah, they have that L-band leading edge radar unit in testing. And in case you're thinking under development means nothing happens, it is the same company that provides the nose radar, so money will be coming in. Plus it will be offered on the MKI, so India might be able to upgrade their Flankers with it. The diagram is of course wishful thinking, the units aren't that big, and I think it's ridiculous to think there's room in the outer edges for another Ka-band units as well as X-band. The person that did the drawing probably never looked at a fighter's wing, it's thin. The transmitters don't need much room of course, but if you can only place a couple of them, you can't really say its AESA anymore, as there won't be much of an array. Also there's the power and weight issue. I don't see any reason for adding Ka-band as well. It will be good with the nose radar, tailcone radar and the leading edge ones. I don't see any reason to put additional units all over the thing. And it would need a lot of computing power, far more than the Russians can put into it. It seems sometimes it is forgotten that this thing is not built to be undefeatable or win some innovation medal, but to equip the future Russian Air Force with a decent amount of them.

The reason that it's L-band is probably related to feasability. Some claim it will be better to detect stealth planes, I think that's BS. You need a much lower frequency, so far when defeating stealth was talked about the term ultra-low was used. L-band is hardly anything to brag about. I should quote this but can't remember where I read it, I think it was a nice statement "The Russians aren't the first to use L-band, but as ever, they are the first to claim they can perform miracles with it." The reason it needs these units is to expand the hemisphere coverage. The nose radar is only electronically steered, the array is fixed unlike some other AESA designs. That's where these leading edge arrays come in handy. Its range will be far less than the main unit, and it's probably just search that it will perform, for situational awareness. L-band requires less power, less processing, but has far lower resolution. So the argument that stealth planes optimized against X-band frequencies produce a bigger RCS in L-band, is irrelevant, because if it didn't, they'd be better off mechanically steering the array of the nose radar. However I suppose that as stealth planes won't show up on the RWR, you need to look for them for your SA. The main reason is course that the fixed nose array, means simpler design, maintenance, and less weight. And a somewhat larger diameter possible, means more electronically steered (sub)units... Maybe having the ability to scan in an additional band will improve jamming resistance as well. I wonder though, what it will for the detectability of the PAK-FA itself... can't be good. The addition of these units, actually are more of a sign of the limitations of the IRST and the main radar unit.

Like the tailcone radar, it's likely that this should be seen as an optional item. PAK-FA is a staged project, and I don't expect Phase I aircraft to have them.

The F-35 will naturally look less capable when you exaggerate the capabilities of everything else...


Your second question. Russia / China are strengthening, or rather, restoring their military cooperation. The Su-33 and Su-35 are offered to China, and even the Su-34. For the Su-35 license production is on the table. If this works out, China might get access to the PAK-FA. However, problem, India sees China as potential enemy (not as likely as Pakistan, but China is of course a bigger threat). With India in the PAK-FA development, I wonder if that gives them the power to veto sales to China. I doubt it!! That would then surely mean the end for Russian-Indo military cooperation, and then we'll be likely to see more Indian orders going to US companies. Time will tell.
Title: Re: At last the PAK-FA
Post by: F-111 C/C on February 25, 2010, 04:38:13 PM
Don't you think that the assessment of the capabilities of the PAK-FA by Ausairpower is pretty optimistic for a plane that has only flown a couple of times and with none of its 'special' equipment and engines? I mean it's one thing to speculate about a plane's performance based on its information but when I read this they speak as though it's already happened; a guarantee. Some of their claims are pretty bold and they're deciding the outcomes of combat between 2 aircraft that are both unproven operationally. Maybe it's me but I find it irresponsible to state things 'as fact' on something that is still SO FAR from reality right now. Maybe the PAK-FA will be the greatest plane ever made, but at least wait until that happens before declaring it so.
Title: Re: At last the PAK-FA
Post by: Webmaster on February 25, 2010, 06:32:30 PM
I think almost all assessments by Ausairpower are skewed. As they are more threat assessments, I'm not sure optimistic is the word. But you are right, and that's what I meant with my statement about the F-35.

But uhm, I suppose you were asking SukhoiLover....
Title: Re: At last the PAK-FA
Post by: F-111 C/C on February 25, 2010, 06:42:36 PM
Just making a general observation in line with your F-35 comment :)
Title: Re: At last the PAK-FA
Post by: SukhoiLover on February 26, 2010, 07:49:02 PM
I had my doubts, but i now i think it has the potentional to be the best fighter ever. However, a lot depends on how the Russians will manage the program.

About APA, i think that while most "experts" tend to be quite optimistic and even arrogant on their assessements on Russian military technoloogy, APA tends to be the guys who assess things from the worst case scenario.

Is that incorrect or beeing biased? Hell no!

In my personal opinion, i think that every military commander should think like that, History has shown us that underestimating a potential threat or beeing to optimistic about a potential threat might lead to very bad results.


So, i respect APA because they can see the true potential of things. But i repeat, POTENTIAL, it doesn´t mean that everything they say will happen but, you must admit that their approach to threats is far from beeing wrong.
Title: Re: At last the PAK-FA
Post by: lucciano85m on October 06, 2011, 11:25:35 PM
IAF, The fifth-generation fighter aircraft will enter service in 2017

The Indian Air Force (IAF) will induct a total of 214 single and twin-seater variants of the advanced Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) being developed jointly by India and Russia. The fighters are likely to be inducted by 2017.

"We are looking for 166 single seater and 48 twin-seater versions of the aircraft," IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne said in New Delhi.

(http://www.xairforces.net/images/news/large_news/041011_IAF_Su-PakFa-T50.jpg)

http://www.xairforces.net/newsd.asp?newsid=552&newst=13
Title: Re: At last the PAK-FA
Post by: lucciano85m on December 27, 2011, 12:27:50 AM
Russian Sukhoi T-50 Makes Flight Test Progress

(http://www.xairforces.net/images/news/main_news/251111_Russian_T-50_Test-Flight.jpg)
The third prototype of the Sukhoi T-50 Fifth-Generation Fighter made a first flight on November 22 with test pilot Sergey Bogdan at the controls.

The flight from the Dzemgi aerodrome of the Komsomolsk-upon-Amur Aircraft Production Organization (KnAAPO) lasted more than one hour and was uneventful, according to KnAAPO. The T-50 is also known as the PAKFA, a Russian acronym meaning Future Complex of Frontal Aviation.

http://www.xairforces.net/newsd.asp?newsid=636&newst=8 (http://www.xairforces.net/newsd.asp?newsid=636&newst=8)