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Author Topic: More budget and aircrafts promise for Argentine Air Force  (Read 12301 times)

Offline tigershark

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 More budget and aircrafts promise for Argentine Air Force
Argentina’s Defence Minister announced on Thursday a budget boost and promised a significant increase in the number of aircraft for the Air Force during the celebration of Malvinas War Fire Baptism Day
“The budget boost will represent a 54% increase over 2007, for training and for the recovery of Air Force equipment and material”, said Defence minister Nilda Garré.

Addressing the Air Force Chief of Staff, officers and personnel Ms Garré recalled not only the courage but also the capability and skill of Argentine pilots and combatants during the Falklands war.

It was precisely on May first 1982 that the Argentine Air Force became involved for the first time ever in combat with the British Task Force sent to recover the Falklands Islands.

“Argentine Air Force pilots inflicted the Royal Navy the greatest damage in combat since the Second World War”, added Garré.

The minister pointed out that “Malvinas was also evidence of the lack of organization and joint functioning of the Argentine Armed Forces which led to serious mistakes at the moment of coordinated military operations”.

And the price paid in any war “is always very high and is measured in human lives”.

Garré then praised Mr. and Mrs. Kirchner administrations saying that they have created the institutional foundations for the reorganization of the Armed Forces and planning defense alternatives.

“This included creating the Operational Command for the Armed Forces and the Joint Chiefs of Staff and amending its structures”.

More specifically on equipment and material Garre promised that the Air Force “this year will have a display of operational aircrafts significantly greater than in previous years”.

“We are recovering the workshops and technical support for Air Brigades I, II and IX as well as material recovery in Rio Cuarto, Quilmes and logistics in Cordoba and El Palomar. All have approved budgets and are on course”, said Garre.

She also revealed that Argentina together with “friendly countries” from the region was in the process of an ambitious initiative to recover the manufacturing capacity of the Cordoba plant.

Finally she said that in the pursuit of greater efficiency and transparency the Ministry was in the process of creating a Defence Logistic Agency.

Source
http://www.mercopress.com/vernoticia.do?id=13313&formato=HTML


Friday, May 2, 2008
Direct Link: http://www.mercopress.com/vernoticia.do?id=13313&formato=ht

Offline Globetrotter

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Re: More budget and aircrafts promise for Argentine Air Force
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2008, 03:34:23 AM »
Thanks for the news, nonpilot. I can add some other sources that confirm what this one is stating. (http://www.infobae.com/contenidos/378002-0-0-Aumentan-54-presupuesto-la-Fuerza-A%C3%A9rea)

It is also true that a considerable part of the cargo fleet has been restored. We have 5 Hercules airworthy now, while we used had two. These airplanes were indeed seen flying in formation in the FAA parade (1 and 3 of May of the current year).
There has also been the promise of refurbishing the F.28 (cargo also) for this year, but I didn't find any more info on this.

There is now a plan (Plan de Acción Progresivo, or Progressive Action Plan), which will take 5 years to improve FAA's material, and work capacity, which will be achieved by establishing higher levels in workshops and technical groups. There is also a plan for strenghtening relations with EMBRAER (Brazilian company) to maybe retake what was the FMA (Fábrica Militar de Aviones, or Military Airplanes Factory) which is now lended to Lockheed Martin by not "refreshing" the contract they have with the Argentine government (which I, personally, am looking forward to)... and possibly continue with IA-63 Pampa production, with some improved avionics, which is another of the goals for improving FAA training capacity. Helicopters are also included on this "stage" of modernisation.

The third stage of the plan is to replace the ageing Mirage fleet, probably with Mirages 2000. Relations with France are being strengthened now that the negociations for adquiring a High speed train for Argentina had begun.

Well, I hope to have sumed something to the theme! :)

"Ad Astra Per Aspera"   (5º Grupo de Caza ≈ A-4AR Fightinghawk)

 ~ MALVINAS ARGENTINAS ~


Offline tigershark

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Offline Globetrotter

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Re: More budget and aircrafts promise for Argentine Air Force
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2008, 05:21:59 PM »
Well, I don't want to turn this into a FMA-LMAASA discussion, but let me tell you that's the nice-ending, hollywood story.

Did you find any new aircraft being developed since 1995 by LMAASA? How many aircraft were produced, and even more designed, while the FMA was an state company?

How do we expect to succeed in exporting a national product managed by a company that doesn't even consider exporting it as a benefit for themselves? They have other interests. FMA was also capable of doing the repair service that now LMAASA does, but they also designed airplanes, national airplanes, and I consider that as a very important feautre if what we want is to become independent in some way in this field. Problem is they (LM) don't want that to happen...
"Ad Astra Per Aspera"   (5º Grupo de Caza ≈ A-4AR Fightinghawk)

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Offline tigershark

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Re: More budget and aircrafts promise for Argentine Air Force
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2008, 06:50:55 PM »
Hi Globetrotter
I wouldn't know how to start a FMA-LMAASA discussion.  I found some info and a article saying they increase spending by 54% compared to 2007, thought that was a good thing.  I was hoping you would fill in the blanks a little since your from there?   Did I bring up a touchy subject I thought increased spending was a good? 
Globetrotter I didn't go into this deeply I posted a positive article about increased spending I don't know how to respond to:
1.
Quote
but let me tell you that's the nice-ending, hollywood story.
2.
Quote
Did you find any new aircraft being developed since 1995 by LMAASA?
3.
Quote
How many aircraft were produced, and even more designed, while the FMA was an state company?
4.
Quote
Problem is they (LM) don't want that to happen...

1. Usually when Hollywood is mentioned it isn't a good thing because most of Hollywood is fiction.
2. I didn't look to see if any new aircraft were built since 1995.  Not in a mean way but Argentina isn't know for the aircraft production compared to others.
3. I wouldn't know nor do I really know what FMA is?
4. LM - I assume is Lockheed Martin and something to do with the C-130 project?  Again I can only assume that LM wanted Argentina only to buy LM aircraft and products?  Would Mirage or RSG MIG do anything different?   Did Argentina and LM have some sort of a falling out? 

Maybe I'm reading more into your words then your saying please point me in the right direction, nonpilot

Offline Globetrotter

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Re: More budget and aircrafts promise for Argentine Air Force
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2008, 09:53:34 PM »
First of all, the increased spending on aviation in Argentina is a good thing for aviation. Unfortunately, there are other priorities in our country. But , let's leave it as aviation, yes, it's a good thing for our Air Force.

Then about the FMA or LMAASA.

As you pointed a source, which I think is quite partial, I wanted to give you another look on it. I also thought you might be doing some reaserch on it or put the theme on the table.

FMA (Fábrica Militar de Aviones or in English, Airplanes Military Factory) was the state factory, located in Córdoba, where our airplanes were overhauled, and some of them, desgined too, until 1995, when it was privatised to Lockheed Martin (LM), like many of other state-companies at the time. There were many designs by FMA that were not produced, but some others were.

Here is a list of the desgined planes, and some of the ones in service (wikipedia):  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_Aircraft_Argentina

I thought the article you suggested is somewhat partial, as I think, because it points out "good" things that have happened since LM took over, but it doesn't state, for example, how many aircraft have been designed since then ( what is equal to 0, zero).

Let's say I am not personally comfortable with this idea, which rather bothers me as for the "what COULD have happened IF....".

Project SAIA 90 is one of them... But I also have to admit corruption and everything else doesn't help :-\

As you said, Argentina is not a country that outstands for aircraft production. However, we have developed some aircraft that fit to our necessities, and help, at the same time, develop technological skills, at the same time we become somewhat more independent on this fields. IAe 46 Ranquel is an example of it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I.Ae._46_Ranquel), as well as the cargo plane IA 50 Guaraní II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FMA_IA_50_Guaran%C3%AD_II), and the ones more common to you, IA-58 Pucará and IA-63 Pampa.

LM, as a producer of aircraft itself, may not want to have competitors. This makes sense to me when we asked for the F-16 quite some years ago, and it was denied. As an option, they modernised our A-4s, taking them to the A-4AR level, which is obviously still far from an F-16. Maybe the SAIA 90 would have fitted in this space left open.

SAIA 90 project (http://www.hangardigital.com.ar/saia90.html) Sorry, but when I try to translate it, it appears in Spanish, so it's of no help. I leave that to you.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FMA_SAIA_90#Possible_armament)

Dassault and MiG and whoever it was that took over would have done the same: look for their profit at expenses of our own developement. I am not against LM directly, but against the privatisation of the factory for the reasons I think I explained above.

There was, I hope there still is, a plan for recovering the FMA (making it a state company again) and possibly start cooperating with Brazil's state company (EMBRAER) to develop aeronautical skills in the Latin American territory.

Maybe I overreacted when I saw the article you linked about the FMA, but, yes, its privatisation is a touchy theme for us Argentine aviation lovers. Just think how would you feel if there was any possibility of seeing some "home-made" aircraft flying for your country, possibly other countries too! Well, I don't expect you to understand me at this point, cause your country does have airplanes all arround the world, and they are among the best ones.
The thought of the possibility of that happening if the SAIA 90 would have succedeed is rather uncomfortable.

I hope to have given a wider look to the issue, but if I didn't success in doing so, it would be a pleasure to answer any further question ;)
"Ad Astra Per Aspera"   (5º Grupo de Caza ≈ A-4AR Fightinghawk)

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Offline tigershark

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Re: More budget and aircrafts promise for Argentine Air Force
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2008, 10:15:54 PM »
Globetrotter you done very well explaining the situation very clearly.   I to look forward to more conversations about the world of aviation, thanks. 

PS: I'm rooting for Argentina's aircraft industry.javascript:void(0);
Wink

Offline Globetrotter

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Re: More budget and aircrafts promise for Argentine Air Force
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2008, 01:20:06 AM »
Thanks :)

PS: you should check your java, cause I do not see your emoticons. Or maybe a problem of my computer? I see mine, at least
"Ad Astra Per Aspera"   (5º Grupo de Caza ≈ A-4AR Fightinghawk)

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Offline tigershark

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Re: More budget and aircrafts promise for Argentine Air Force
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2008, 04:20:42 AM »
Webmaster and I can't seem to get my java to work all the buttons above the java faces work fine.  On this other forum I'm in I put put different java happy faces after every word in this other forum only in the subject line.  I use Firefox/2.0.0.14 if you know the correct setting I try anything.  Thanks

I have enable javascript checked.
I have enable java checked.

Offline SAS73

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Re: More budget and aircrafts promise for Argentine Air Force
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2008, 06:08:21 AM »

The third stage of the plan is to replace the ageing Mirage fleet, probably with Mirages 2000. Relations with France are being strengthened now that the negociations for adquiring a High speed train for Argentina had begun.

Well, I hope to have sumed something to the theme! :)

How many Mirage2000 could the AAF buy. I mean the want to replace the old mirage III fleet.


Offline Globetrotter

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Re: More budget and aircrafts promise for Argentine Air Force
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2008, 07:57:46 PM »
That's difficult to specify. I guess 12 or 18 as a maximum?
It also depends on the surplus of the Arme de lAir at the time when our Mirages have their retire scheduled (2013).
"Ad Astra Per Aspera"   (5º Grupo de Caza ≈ A-4AR Fightinghawk)

 ~ MALVINAS ARGENTINAS ~


Offline tigershark

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Re: More budget and aircrafts promise for Argentine Air Force
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2008, 09:10:19 PM »
Globetrotter would those Mirages be the basic 2000 type like Brazil bought or the Mirage 2000-5, with the better radar, MICA, missiles, and weapons systems?  I hope for Argentina's AF sake they purchase the 5 model and not the much older C models just a more capable fighter overall.  I really can't imagine France even having 18 C models left but I maybe wrong.  One would think France would have an Mirage 2000-5 or I think France calls them Mirage 2000-F types open once more Rafale's come online.   Once the Rafale can marked it's own targets I think the Mirage 2000-5/F's might go up for sale.  Cutting down to one main type for training, spares, weapons, etc is just so much more cost effective and since France is going down that direction (scaling down) I do believe older Mirages will become available.   France might hold onto a number of D and N models because I don't think a lot of them were produced.   

Basis Rafale question are two seat Rafale's B's or D's, since the single seat are called C and either F1 or F2 standards?   And they better then UAE Mirage 2000-9?
Thanks
(happy face) 

 



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