MILAVIA Forum
Historic Aviation => Warbirds => Topic started by: alyster on September 10, 2005, 03:23:46 PM
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When talking about planes, then it is much easier to compare planes with thing like speed, max height/range etc. But it is alot harder to compare pilots, cause someone always has better plane or more luck etc. Still I would like to know what do u thing?
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Maybe nice if their amount of kills and aircraft can be posted here. That would make it easier to decide your vote.
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Ok, I added the side he was on, victories and plane(s) and the place he was fighting at if his country was fighting at several fronts.
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Well the statistics speak for them selfs, cant belive i voted on a german. :P
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Well, number of kills isn't always everything. Like some had better planes then enemies, better tactics etc. All the 200+ kills were made in the eastern front coz russians sucked, but RAF was strong and there weren't many pilots who kill over 100 planes in the west. And some just didn't have time to fly due to duty as General.(That part was for germans, coz they had all the top scores, 2500+aces;) ). And some like US pilots just didn't see the enemy too often.
But then again it's a poll and I was looking for what u think so I can't blaim u if u go for Harmann, coz 352 is a HUGE number!
Anyway, I would like it if u'd add why some1, is it coz of the numbers or his flying skills or what ever :P
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Numbers speak for them selves.
Sure the type and quality of an aircraft mean something but put an ace in an old aircraft and he/she will bag a rookie in an advanced one. Adolf Galland himself said "Only the spirit of attack born of a brave heart will bring success to any aircraft no matter how advanced it may be." But bear in mind that Eric Hartman flew continuously for years while guys on the allied side flew for a while and were then pulled to the rear to help the war effort by training others. All of these men in this poll are efficient at what they do to more or less a certain higher level than others.
Personally my vote is for Eric Hartman. Beacuse even taking into consideration the length of time he was an active pilot, he STAYED ALIVE during this time also despite being shot down on many ocassions. Hartman got 10 P-51s before being shot down for the fianl time and being captured. And that was when the odds couldn't be any worse.
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Well, how about Chuck Yeager then? He may not have as many kills as these above, but he was an excellent pilot during WW II. Remember that he shot down 3 or was it 5 enemy planes in one day. :)
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I added him. And he did have 5 kills on one day and a month later he had 4 kills on one day. It's a nice score for a USAAF pilot.
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Cool, thanks Alyster! I wish i vote on Chuckie, but since i already voted on the "German" i have to live with it. ;)
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352 is huge number, so can't resist voting for him, it may have been on the eastern front, but we have a Russian ace here as well you know. But you are right. Maybe I should have voted for the Russian, he was up against experienced pilots flying more advanced aircraft.
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But bear in mind that Eric Hartman flew continuously for years while guys on the allied side flew for a while and were then pulled to the rear to help the war effort by training others.
Personally my vote is for Eric Hartman. Beacuse even taking into consideration the length of time he was an active pilot, he STAYED ALIVE during this time also despite being shot down on many ocassions. Hartman got 10 P-51s before being shot down for the fianl time and being captured.
He flew since 1942.
Hartmann wasn't captured after being shot down, he and his unit destroyed their planes and went to US captured sector, where they surandered. US gave him out to USSR after that.
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That's right the allies gave him to the russians. He spent I think 10 years in prison before beign released.
His actual score on retirement was 353.
As part of the West German Air Force he was choosen as a test pilot or something of the sort for the Kestrel, the for runner to the Harrier. During a test flight to hover the aircraft, at NAS Oceana, he crashed, after which he hopped out of the aircraft and shout "HAA HAA 353 allied aircraft destroyed!!!"
Sure Yeager was great! They all are! They all have a certain level of skill and charisma that places them just a notch above the rest of pilots. I voted for Eric cause I admire him the most.
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Yes, these oldtimers are a special breed. Think it´s important that we remember them and honor them for not just all the kills, but for being pioneers of the the jetage. :)
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As part of the West German Air Force he was choosen as a test pilot or something of the sort for the Kestrel, the for runner to the Harrier. During a test flight to hover the aircraft, at NAS Oceana, he crashed, after which he hopped out of the aircraft and shout "HAA HAA 353 allied aircraft destroyed!!!"
That wasn't Harmann, it was Gerhard Barkhorn. And he said"Drei hundert und zwei" (he's ww2 score was 301). BTW he didn't shout it after hoping out of the plane, he mubled it while others helped him get out of the plane.
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Ok, thanks for correcting me. I was throughly confused there then.
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I notice that Ulrich Rudel wasn't on the list? The only man to get the Oak leaves and Swords with Diamonds in Gold to go with his Knights Cross. he not only flew the Ju87 but also the Fw190D and scored 8 aerial victories in that...so he was no slouch.
I voted for Hatmann by the way, but I still can't belive that the Americans handed him over to the Russians at the end of the war...how dishonerable was that?!... >:(
He was jailed for war crimes because the Russians said that some of the shells fired from his aircraft MUST have killed civilians!
Let's hope we never have to go through that kind of war again... :'(
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I didn't add him to the list, cause he didn't get the highest Knight Cross cause of his 8(9) kills. In Luftwaffe, getting so 8 kills wasn't anything big.
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Fair comment, but by all accounts Rudel was a truly exceptional pilot.
This is a good poll anyway because it's forced people to look at the bare statistics and try and separate a lot of the rubbish we here out of it all. 352 kills for any single pilot is astonishing in anyones book.
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Uh Adolf Galland scored 6 victories in the Eastern front. He flew a FW-190 A1
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These kills were unofficial.
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Excuse me??? The 100s of kills we're made against useless planes and pilots! Except ONE. And where is Douglas Bader? Marmaduke Thomas St. John 'Pat' Pattle?
'
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I voted Richard Bong...he was a very good pilot.
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I don't LIKE Mr. Bong. Adolf Galland. He's a more European theatre than Russian, where the planes can be shot down by any pilot for the Lufftwaffe, USAAF, RAF, or any other place for that matter.
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Excuse me??? The 100s of kills we're made against useless planes and pilots! Except ONE. And where is Douglas Bader? Marmaduke Thomas St. John 'Pat' Pattle?
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man there is no such thing as useless pilots
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Agreed. But the Germans had a lot more training than the Russians.
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i voted the Russian Guy, just for fun
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You voted the RUSSIAN GUY???
Man... Ah, yes. There's some German pilot who would set up a kill and then let his junior take over, wasn't it? Now who is it...?
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Well considering Russia was being majorly smashed during the war (early part atleast), they managed to have one guy kill 62 victories..
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352, that really is a lot, Hartmann was truly a great pilot, although he was an enemy :-\
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Hornet. Sorry to contradict you, but i completely disagree. There were many German pilots who hit past the 100 mark in the russian war.
Folks who managed to hit that mark on British aircraft i respect more, and those that shot only fighters i respect even more.
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There were some pilots who shot down over 100 planes on western front. No one got over the 200 mark in the west though. My fav. Galland should be one with high score in the west,
However I had a look over the scores yesterday and noticed that if we do not count Finland into same group with Allies (although she had a small war with Germans in the Lapland), then the highest allied ace is the Russian Ivan Kozuhedub. That makes Top 116 pilots "the enemies" and top 108 are Germans. Rudolf Trenkel if I'm not mistaking got 137 kills in the west, Werner schroer should have gotten 102 kills in the west, Galland 104 and I think night fighters scored high against western-allies.
And Americans flew even on the Eastern-Front. Not that I'd think much of USAAF though...
352 kills (and Barkhorn's 301[Dreihundret und zwei >:D ] ) are still amazing. Moreover since Harmann fought since '42, where Luftwaffe was all the time losing the edge to Russians and Russian air force was picking up power.
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Gahahaha. Hey alyster. My fav is Galland too. Really noble guy. ;D
Although personally i think Werner schroer was the greatest. ;D
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I don't see Lt. Robin Olds though :/ He flew I think a P-38 in WWII and an F-4 Phantom in Vietnam! he was also the leader of Operation Bolo in which half of the NVA's MiG-21 force was shot down by I think 4 F-4s! (the MiG-21 force I believe was around 17 MiGs)
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F-4 Phantom in Vietnam! he was also the leader of Operation Bolo in which half of the NVA's MiG-21 force was shot down by I think 4 F-4s! (the MiG-21 force I believe was around 17 MiGs)
WW2 ::)
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He flew in WWII...look at the beginning of the post ;)
I think he was even an ace during WWII let me see.
I know he is not in the hundreds but still an amazing pilot.
EDIT: Yup an ace during WWII. Here is from Wikipedia:
Robin Olds (July 14, 1922 – June 14, 2007) was an American fighter pilot and general officer in the U.S. Air Force. He was a "triple ace", with a combined total of 16 victories in World War II and the Vietnam War.[1] He retired in 1973 as a brigadier general.
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I understand he just died recently (well atlist compared to other guys here), but I'd ask again would one seriously consider him the best in WW2 ? I mean 16 kills combined in WW2 and Vietnam? OK, perhaps the kills aren't the thing to judge over a pilot always(because he isn't in any top probably), but then something else?
If you haven't voted yet and want to, I'll add him. Your choice. But I do think his best days were after The war.
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Well no I voted for Richard I. Bong...good pilot.
But that was months ago I voted ;D
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Hu. Hartmann. Fighter dude with and attitude. Now he's doubled Galland. >:(
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The best? Heinz Bar. Consider: he flew in the Phoney War, Battle of Britain and then Russia. Brought out to the Middle East and then, due to stomach ulcers, refused to fly and was sent back to Germany 'in disgrace'. Then flew against the US heavies and finally flew jets. I think that none of the others quoted had this kind of experience. He was simply brilliant at everything he did, flew 1939 - 1945 and survived. What a guy!
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I still think Galland was the best. ::)