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Historic Aviation => Warbirds => Topic started by: valkyrian on June 18, 2007, 09:46:02 PM

Title: The Fantastic CF-105 Arrow
Post by: valkyrian on June 18, 2007, 09:46:02 PM
Well, usually the aircrafts i fell in love with, are of those types that never make it! One of them is the CF-105 Arrow. When the elegant protoype was built, the Russians were searching what is the best combination of "tubes plus  wing" while the Americans (with the F-4 and A-5A were in a better way, but still were lucking of vision). Unfortunately, this superb interceptor failed because of the fourth dimension that every aircraft has, besides height, length and span, that is politics................The Canadians recieved..........CF-101 Voodoos and CF-104 Starfighters, noone of them had the performance or the capabilities of the white canadian arrow.
Please make a comment, as a contribution to this unborn legend............
Title: Re: The Fantastic CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Globetrotter on June 19, 2007, 02:44:06 AM
well, I love your posts, Valkyrian! It is sooo true... the thing on the 4th dimension well, just it is like that!!!

I also have a similar case, like the Mirage 4000.... :-\

I haveto admit the aircraft looked really good, and was quite advanced for its time...but is, unfortunately rather unknown.

Fast as a F-104, I presume that also more maneuverable than it, and a really all-weather aircraft I would have liked to see in the canadian and others AFs...
Title: Re: The Fantastic CF-105 Arrow
Post by: valkyrian on June 19, 2007, 10:00:53 PM
Well Thomas, the 4000 deserves a thread of its own. Another unlucky design....the CF-105 represented a quantum leap in everything, propulsion (the Iroquois turbojet) electronics (astra system) the aerodynamics (tailless delta).....from nose to the top it was a miracle performed by one company, the Avro of Canada....
Title: Re: The Fantastic CF-105 Arrow
Post by: tigershark on June 20, 2007, 03:57:25 PM
Sadly I know little about the CF-105 Arrow so please share more and add in a link or to so I could do some good reading.  The Mirage 4000 in similar ways to the mightily F-20 (had to slip it in) came out at the wrong time.  Maybe it should have its own thread or least make a Mirage thread.  I'm always interested in current older models still flying to and the never respected F-1C types that weren't shown enough love.   You could put a RC400 RDY radar in it and launch MICA radar guided missiles make yourself a low cost point defense fighter. 
Title: Re: The Fantastic CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Webmaster on June 22, 2007, 03:47:00 PM
I am in awe of this aircraft as well, it has been somewhat lucky compared to others though, at least a movie was dedicated to its story.

I think everything was scrapped, including all the manufacturing equipment. Really sad. I think not, but maybe you know more... did any prototype make it to a museum?

I'm not sure how long it would have lived though... in which quantities and at what cost to the taxpayer. But it would have made a better interceptor than missiles and the Voodoo. However, I love the F-101 and F-104 as well, I am sure the latter would still have entered service. Frustrating about its story, is that they were already so far in the development before it was canned.

By the way, don't forget the TSR.1  ;)
Title: Re: The Fantastic CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Globetrotter on June 22, 2007, 05:23:16 PM
oouh.. TSR.1 make me creepy :P it was somewhat .... "un elegant"

There was an Argentine project too. Fairly similar to the F/A-18.... but it was nice! :D it is sad to be it was :-\

I can't find the page now, it used to be at hangardigital.com.ar anyone heard of it?? It now says the page is no longer on the server... (didn't pay the fee???)
Title: Re: The Fantastic CF-105 Arrow
Post by: valkyrian on June 22, 2007, 07:02:42 PM
Thanx Niels for the picture!


The Canadian Government did everything to destroy this effort. The Arrow was something of the ATF of its time. A nation like Canada although it possessed the technological level couldn't do it alone. My question is how those brain dead English didn't came and help. After all it was AVRO Canada, like we say AVRO Vulcan, and the Canadians were in the commonwealth. Anyway, they destroyed everything  but with the arrow killed their capability in aero industry. Even with the J75 instead of the Iroquois engines the Arrow was far better than the Voodoo, not to mention anything of its time. Maybe the Americans didn't want such a hot performer to exist, and sabotaged a little. Maybe the Canadian government was short sighted. But the Arrow was quite an achievement. And it was not untill some years after the arrow, that the English made the same stupid move, they killed their TSR2 in favor to the F-111K, which although it seemed good on a paper it prooved much costlier.

Hey thomas, what is this Argentinian hornet like fighter?
Title: Re: The Fantastic CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Globetrotter on June 22, 2007, 07:11:00 PM
I don't remember the name :'(

I'll search and tell you
Title: Re: The Fantastic CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Globetrotter on June 25, 2007, 04:10:21 AM
I GOT IT!!

SAIA 90 was the name, and it was a project that didn't even have a proto...

http://miarroba.com/foros/ver.php?foroid=833521&temaid=3601702

the link is in spanish, but there are some good drawings of how it would have looked, I am going to translate it later
Title: Re: The Fantastic CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Globetrotter on June 26, 2007, 12:33:29 AM
The main things mentiones are:


Title: Re: The Fantastic CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Flanker.94 on June 26, 2007, 04:32:11 AM
[quote author=Webmaster link=topic=749.msg7832#msg7832 date=1182520020
I think everything was scrapped, including all the manufacturing equipment. Really sad. I think not, but maybe you know more... did any prototype make it to a museum?
[/quote]

The Arrow made it to a museum... But just the nose, the cokpit, the wings and the air intakes. They did a full-scale replica in Toronto. I think I know why the Arrown program was cancelled. The Canadian government thought that misilles launched from the groung will be more effective than interceptors carrying air-air missiles. Later, they found that they were wrong. Since then, the Canadian government has bought American fighters.
Title: Re: The Fantastic CF-105 Arrow
Post by: valkyrian on June 26, 2007, 08:10:59 PM
Hi Flanker! thanks for passing by...a canadian opinion on this matter has a specific gravity, but let me tell you that what you said was the official excusion about why they did cancel the program.
Title: Re: The Fantastic CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Flanker.94 on June 27, 2007, 03:02:51 PM
I know, but I found it on Wikipedia.
Title: Re: The Fantastic CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Flanker.94 on June 27, 2007, 03:10:39 PM
I forgot ot say that some 60,000 employees lost their jobs because of the cancellation of the Arrow programme.
Title: Re: The Fantastic CF-105 Arrow
Post by: valkyrian on June 27, 2007, 07:22:48 PM
...and if u consider that a fine aeronautical industry destroyed, the long term effects are more than this!!!!!
Title: Re: The Fantastic CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Webmaster on June 29, 2007, 04:46:29 PM
The Arrow made it to a museum... But just the nose, the cokpit, the wings and the air intakes. They did a full-scale replica in Toronto. I think I know why the Arrown program was cancelled. The Canadian government thought that misilles launched from the groung will be more effective than interceptors carrying air-air missiles. Later, they found that they were wrong. Since then, the Canadian government has bought American fighters.

Ah good, well, at least it's something.

Yes, the Americans managed to get Canada to buy into their missile shield idea. But the Americans weren't scrapping their interceptors, hehe.  :P
Title: Re: The Fantastic CF-105 Arrow
Post by: valkyrian on June 29, 2007, 11:23:39 PM
Just look at it....from tip to the tail it says " i'm built for speed".....such an elegant aerodynamic shape.....its designer must have been a Da Vindci descendant....

Imagine Canadian CF-105 American F-108 Rappier, F-12 defending the North American borders, against Mig-25's, or better, escorting B-70's on their way to Russia......it would be like watching "Starwars" in the 60's...

When someone considers such magnificent planes, sees a paradox...up to the sisties, aircraft performance was increasing expotentially.....after that.....
Title: Re: The Fantastic CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Globetrotter on June 30, 2007, 01:16:52 AM
you are sooo right, vlakyrian.

The ones constructed in that time were the most stylish airplanes: Mirages, -104s, F-106 :o :o (My favourite), well, this one....
Title: Re: The Fantastic CF-105 Arrow
Post by: valkyrian on June 30, 2007, 08:46:15 AM
Say, you like the F-106? Me too. I have a Monogram kit of this in 1/48, i have bought it about...17 years ago, and i still haven't assembled yet......i just stare at the parts.....it could be a great pair with a B-58 Hustler (another favorite)........but no matter how i like the -6, when you compare it even as a design with the Arrow, you can understand that the 105, was a class of its own....even the F-4 wouldn't be able either to touch it. ...
Title: Re: The Fantastic CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Globetrotter on June 30, 2007, 03:32:02 PM
 :o you bought the six more or less when I was born :P

And yes, is one of my favourites, if not the one :D I just love it, its curves, everything... Oh... and God bless the inventor of Area RUlling!!!! :o
Title: Re: The Fantastic CF-105 Arrow
Post by: valkyrian on June 30, 2007, 06:34:29 PM
If you want to know him name , it is "Richard Whitcomb"...and he also invented the so called supercritical airfoil...if not for him, many aircrafts including the F-102, F-5, B-58 (the first examples of area ruling) would not have been succesful...
Title: Re: The Fantastic CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Globetrotter on June 30, 2007, 07:08:16 PM
Yes, I read that in the book you sent me :P

IN fact, the F-102 wouldn't have been even supersonic....
Title: Re: The Fantastic CF-105 Arrow
Post by: valkyrian on July 02, 2007, 03:20:12 PM
I am glad you learn about "area rule", can u imagine that this knowledge was once unknown and great engineers learn about it when they were much much older than you.? keep on reading
Title: Re: The Fantastic CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Webmaster on July 09, 2007, 01:17:09 AM
Don't forget the Tu-22 as a good example of area rule.
Title: Re: The Fantastic CF-105 Arrow
Post by: valkyrian on July 09, 2007, 09:22:08 AM
Don't forget the Tu-22 as a good example of area rule.

I'd say that this area rule, dictated the shape of all the designs..you can see it as a styling ...........

But the British kept on designing ugly, monsters!!!
Title: Re: The Fantastic CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Raptor on July 11, 2007, 10:12:26 AM
This was really aptly titled. The name "Arrow" just doesn't do it justice. It's a fantastic plane, though before i saw this thread (and went to do some research) i had never heard of it.

And to think that right now the USA has the most pathetic AA missiles.
Title: Re: The Fantastic CF-105 Arrow
Post by: valkyrian on July 14, 2007, 06:20:43 PM
I think it was as advanced for its time as was the B-70. And i must not forget the F-12, the allien like superfighter.
Title: Re: The Fantastic CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Flanker.94 on July 28, 2007, 03:56:03 AM
I think the cancellation and the scrapping of the CF-105 Arrow was the worst mistake of Canadian aeronautical industry. Why did Pres. Diefenbaker sacraped them all? What a gigantic mistake!
Title: Re: The Fantastic CF-105 Arrow
Post by: valkyrian on July 28, 2007, 02:25:49 PM
Maybe he wanted to save money, for social purposes (hospitals, schools etc) which is good. But he didn't calculate the impact on the industry. How many people left without job ? Canada lost for sure the technological edge......and what is worst, paid to buy foreign planes, with a fraction of the capability of the Arrow....this short sighted desicion caused more damage, than if Canada had proceeded and bought the plane. After all, the money could stay in Canadian pockets..........

Title: Re: The Fantastic CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Raptor on August 08, 2007, 09:44:51 AM
Perhaps it was for the best. Who knows how advanced our aircraft would be today, without these miraculous projects being scrapped. With the Navy and Army having no time to catch up, and with other nations not having the time to develop such powerful engines and airframes, just saying we don't want to take over the world doesn't mean some other idiot won't.
Title: Re: The Fantastic CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Raptor on October 16, 2007, 06:30:19 AM
Quick check back. There were only 5 prototypes built. And the whole program was scrapped after barely a year.

Apparently the Delta configuration was chosen because it would have high fuel and payload capacity as well as a manuevering advantage over conventional swept-wing fighter designs.
Title: Re: The Fantastic CF-105 Arrow
Post by: valkyrian on October 16, 2007, 12:20:59 PM
Good approach Raptor!. A tailess delta is less maneuvrable than a tailed one, but offers greater strength - due to the greater chord -  and naturally greater volume for fuel....

Overall, the Arrow designers deserved a Collier Trophy (that is what their american counterparts receive for significant achievements).

Without doubt, a better than convairs deltas, and equally good like the North American's F-108 Rapier. Not so -out of this world- like the F-12...
Title: Re: The Fantastic CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Raptor on October 16, 2007, 03:28:44 PM
I was doing a paper on any topic. So i picked this one and did a lot of research. It was very advanced period. 6,000 ft. take-off. Mach 2.

One of the requirements that the RCAF set was that it must be able to go from idle to 50,000 ft. and Mach 1.5 in less than 5 minutes. We're talking better performing than anything in that time. The RCAF checked in the US and France, before determining that none of the fighters that the afore mentioned met the requirements of the RCAF. It was only then that Avro was awarded the project. My aerodymanics handbook doesn't mention delta configurations. And i can't find any good books for sale. The library took them all. Any good books you recommend?

Some aftermath history: Apparently they destroyed the construction materials and prototype parts because of a fear/suspicion that there was a Soviet mole in the project. This was apparently confirmed to some degree in the Mitrokhin archives.

Oh yeah and there's this rumor that one prototype was spirited away. Absolute gossip, dear chap. Don't take heed to it.
Title: Re: The Fantastic CF-105 Arrow
Post by: valkyrian on October 17, 2007, 10:46:16 AM
Dear Raptor, are you studying aerodynamics? I'll be glad to help u anyway i can. Just tell me what is your topic, and be sure i'll think of something.
Title: Re: The Fantastic CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Raptor on October 18, 2007, 05:52:36 AM
Well, not exactly. I picked the subject up in my free time. I have a friend who used to be an aeronautical engineer. Not sure what he's studying now, but i someone passed me the illustrated guide to aerodymanics. Sincec then... I've picked up a few other books. Anyway, thanks. I'll be sure to check with you. ;D
Title: Re: The Fantastic CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Flanker.94 on February 16, 2008, 06:33:29 PM
I heard that an Arrow replica was tested in nuclear explosion ot test the effects of a nuke on a plane.
Title: Re: The Fantastic CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Webmaster on February 26, 2008, 02:22:14 AM
I was doing a paper on any topic. So i picked this one and did a lot of research. It was very advanced period. 6,000 ft. take-off. Mach 2.

I'd be interested to read your paper when it's finished, and maybe consider it for publication. Can you e-mail me it?

Some aftermath history: Apparently they destroyed the construction materials and prototype parts because of a fear/suspicion that there was a Soviet mole in the project. This was apparently confirmed to some degree in the Mitrokhin archives.

I still have a hard time believing this, even if there was a mole, I'd say they destroyed everything to keep the decision from being reversed/reconsidered. You could take other measures to keep it from falling into the wrong hands. Was all documentation destroyed as well, or did some go to the US?
Title: Re: The Fantastic CF-105 Arrow
Post by: Raptor on February 26, 2008, 07:50:57 AM
About the paper-Sorry Webby, it's in chinese.  :P I'd rather have done it in English, but...

Not sure about the documentation. I'll look around a bit and check back.